IRC logs of #tryton for Monday, 2010-06-28

chat.freenode.net #tryton log beginning Mon Jun 28 00:00:01 CEST 2010
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Timitoscedk: hi09:39
cedkTimitos: hi09:39
Timitoscedk: about the voting: was it planned to answer with yes/no? i thought is was / ?09:39
Timitos+1/-1?09:39
cedkTimitos: yes it was +1/-1/009:41
cedkTimitos: people can not read instruction09:41
Timitoscedk: so how to go on with this?09:42
cedkTimitos: I will replace yes by +1 and no by -109:43
Timitoscedk: ok. so i will answer with +1/-1/009:43
cedkTimitos: yes it was the instruction09:44
Timitoscedk: it would be better to put the instruction into the voting email next time09:46
yangooncedk: and to put 'human readable' options as in real life. Or do you answer in real life +1, if you are asked  a question?;)10:03
cedkyangoon: for voting the answer must be indisputable10:05
yangooncedk: what's the problem with yes/no in this respect?10:07
cedkyangoon: and if wanted an other protocol you should discute it previous week10:08
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yangooncedk: you didn't include most proposals in the final vote, so the 'protocol' of the whole procedure is not very clear...10:12
cedkyangoon: I have seen any proposal10:13
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yangooncedk: what about Message-ID: <20100625121638.177458a3@obelix.violadagamba.myfqdn.de> ?10:14
cedkyangoon: you don't make law with wish10:18
yangooncedk: yes, finally you make law without discussion10:19
cedkyangoon: you propose to make that are wishes this make no sense10:20
yangooncedk: it makes much sense in a community to communicate the *wished* behavior, but we should have discussed this on the mailing list, not here10:21
yangooncedk: so you can express all musts additionally as wishes to find the wished behavior, refer to the email of dba10:22
bechamelyangoon: do you have an url for 20100625121638.177458a3@obelix.violadagamba.myfqdn.de ?10:30
yangoonbechamel: http://groups.google.com/group/tryton/browse_thread/thread/e432ca91a0efe106/6a2d6867a4af0914?show_docid=6a2d6867a4af0914&pli=110:35
bechamelyangoon: maybe it's a stupid question but how is it possible to view this message if I only know the message-id you gave ?10:38
yangoonbechamel: sorry, I am an old usenet user, and on news the msg-id is a unique key to refer to posts10:40
bechamelyangoon: ok10:44
bechamelyangoon, cedk: what about submitting a message with should on each rule on the voting thread ?10:45
yangoonbechamel: ack for me naturally, but I would indeed post each question as must *and* should, because you get like this wished behavior *and* rules to enforce10:48
bechamelyangoon: Everybody is already voting for each point separately10:50
bechamelyangoon: imo the porblem with SHOULD is that we must define what happens if one SHOULD is not enforeced10:51
yangoonbechamel: a patch/contribution for me is valid if it fulfils all MUSTS10:55
paepkebechamel, well i voted mostly -1 cause i disagree with "must".10:55
paepkethats how i read that question.10:56
yangoonpaepke: +110:56
bechamelpaepke: so what happens if someone submit a patch that do not respect the rules ?10:56
paepkebechamel, if all of the stuff ist should, that guy could not break the rules? don't understand exactly your question.10:57
yangoonbechamel: that question was in your proposal I know10:58
yangoonbechamel: I would have appreciated to see your questions (formatted as single questions) in the final vote, too10:59
bechameliirc the only reaction to my proposal is Timitos who says that I was breaking the definitions (and no positive reaction)11:02
bechamelpaepke: what i mean is that if everything is formulated as "must", it's cristal clear: if a submition is not valid then its rejected11:04
bechamelpaepke: but is the rules are formulated whith "should" what must be done with invalid submitions ? if they are also rejected, rules must be written with "must"'s11:06
bechamels/but is/but if/11:06
yangoonbechamel: it was me who answered your mail, and yes, I just wanted to make clear your questions and the procedure11:06
paepkebechamel, in my perfect world (tm) the guys who submit patches are communicating with you.11:07
yangoonbechamel: shoulds are not enforced, no need to change anything on the contribution11:07
paepkebechamel, processes kills innovation.11:07
paepkebechamel, agree with yangoon if they are "should" they would be accepted.11:08
yangoonbechamel: musts are enforced and you can create rules for handling of patches, that don't match all musts11:08
yangoonbechamel: as such I understand your mail11:09
paepkedba, mentioned in a mail: there is one guy at one of his projects he would miss. and he is not using the rules you want to enforce.11:09
paepkesorry, dba mentiones, but the post should go to bechamel.11:09
yangoonbechamel: paepke just to throw in: why must a contributor have an email at all?11:10
yangoonfor me there is no need11:10
yangoonthats why i have to answer almost all questions with no11:10
paepkeyangoon, imho its good to have an cummunication channel to the contributor. do you know some developer which want to hide the mail-address (or do not have one?)11:11
yangoonpaepke: of course, it is good, but is it a must?11:12
yangoonemail is just as futile as your home address11:12
yangoonpaepke: and we don't discuss here the usual habit of a contributor, but the rules, the project enforces on those11:13
bechamelif everything is anonymous, it's not possible to build trust between peoples11:15
yangoonbechamel: still another question, but has nothing to do with patch format11:16
bechamelof course we are talking about anonymity, the email adress is there to identify contributors (and that why it must not be a collective adress)11:21
paepkeyangoon, bechamel, a little bit. we dropped the need of signing the patches with pgp or something similar, which could bring that trust. on the other hand it would lock out some guys which don't use that. imho that would be bad.11:22
paepkebechamel, i agree with sharoon, about the email-address as i see it as communication channel to the contributor. and that could be a company with a common email-address11:24
bechamelso everybody agree that using pgp is an ideal (but cumbersome) solution, but nobody agree on the MUST's ?11:24
yangoonbechamel: exactly, +111:25
paepkebechamel, +111:26
yangoonand contribution to the project for me is nore important than identification of people11:26
paepkeyangoon, +111:27
yangoonif someone wants to enforce his copyright, he *will* provide satisfying criteria11:27
paepkebechamel, what was the initial need of that rules? law/copyright or security?11:28
yangoonpaepke: http://bugs.tryton.org/roundup/issue158511:28
paepkeyangoon, thanks. i read that thread, but forget about it.11:30
cedkif the rules are made of 'should' then there is no need of rules because anybody can break it11:31
cedkso what you express all is that you don't want rules11:32
cedkso you don't care about what is coming in the repository11:32
bechamel"if someone wants to enforce his copyright, he *will* provide ..." -> this is an important stuff, so one can define each rule with a SHOULD, and the concequence of not observing them is: the copyright (if there is one) MAY be dropped11:33
yangoonbechamel: how do you want to enforce copyright for anonymous?11:33
yangoonbechamel: it is non existent11:33
cedkthe voting is not about copyright at all11:34
cedkthis is two different topics so don't mix them11:34
paepkecedk, i voted for having real name, a mail address and so on (see my post on google groups). i just disagree at some points. having a rule set is good. I don't like either commits with root <root@localhost>11:35
yangoon"cedk: so you don't care about what is coming in the repository" -> nope11:35
bechamelwhat I want to say since the beginning is that MUST is ok alone, SHOULD is not ok if not followed by a MAY (that describe what happens if the rule is not respected)11:35
paepkecedk, there is and there will be a quality check of imported patches at least on codereview?11:35
cedkpaepke: yes, but if someone (not you) propose a patch with per example Paepke as name and your email address for guys that voted against the rules, we should not reject the patch11:37
yangooncedk: it is the task of the maintainers/comitters to check for the quality of the contributions, but quality of the patch must not depend on the existance of an email address in the patch11:38
paepkecedk, imho sharoon mentioned a good point: the contributor, which leaves the company which payed as sallary for that patch, (maybe) don't want to be responsible anymore for the patch. but the company will. so thats why i vote for allowing a common company mail-address with a real name.11:39
cedkyangoon: I don't speak about the quality11:39
cedkpaepke: re-read the GPL, there is no responsability11:40
cedkpaepke: the goal for individual email address is to be able to speak to the guy who wrote the code and not to a marketing pool11:40
cedkpaepke: email address in patch is not the place for advertise11:41
yangooncedk: if you want to avoid falsificates there is no other mean than gpg signature, and that is for me (at least at the moment) overkill11:41
cedkyangoon: I don't want that and gpg doen't help because you must have first trust in someone11:42
cedkyangoon: all I want is clear rule on this point to be able to accept/reject patch without infinite discussion11:42
paepkecedk, agree with GPL about responsibility, but in real life you talk to the guys. thats what i tried to make clear.11:42
cedkyangoon: because it is clear that somes will try to hijack the project11:43
cedkpaepke: no problem to use an unique email address only for Tryton contribution and if you don't want anymore receiving email on this topic, drop this email11:43
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paepkecedk, well, i understand to have the internal mail-address of the guy inside the company. not the info@. but there are bigger companies where teams, quality managers or ticket systems to solve problems or communications with patches.11:45
cedkpaepke: look which email addresses of guys working on RFC (CalDAV per example)?11:46
cedkpaepke: people from apple uses their own email address11:47
cedkby the way, I find it more compatible with the free-software philosophy to recongnize individual11:48
cedkpaepke: don't forget who will use this email, the maintainers and not the end-users11:48
cedkso it is principaly for me this email address :-)11:48
paepkecedk, what about this idea: only allow contributions with real-name mailaddresses, and some companies can assign to have a trusted common mail-address for submitting patches? - its more bureaucratic overhead.11:49
cedkothers will submit issue on roundup that is all and not submit it to the bug tracker of any external company11:49
cedkpaepke: no, I want to speak to the *real* guy who wrote the code and not any proxy11:50
paepkecedk, agree that endusers will probably never send mails about a specific change set ;-)11:50
yangooncedk: if there are issues with a patch and you cannot speak to the originator, you can just ignore it11:54
cedkyangoon: of course, but I don't want to spend time to find that the email is black hole or is a proxy guys which don't know about what I'm talking11:57
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yangooncedk: there is absolutely no mean to avoid this, even with thousand musts11:57
paepkecedk, but the companies which have a common address could have a good procedure to give you a better / faster answer about the piece of code, than a special developer. maybe the technical project leader?11:58
cedkpaepke: no, because I need to talk to the guy who have think about the code11:58
cedkpaepke: the kind of question will be: why did you do this this way instead of this one?11:59
cedkpaepke: the project leader will be the sender12:00
paepkecedk, what about the policy inside a company: no developer should ever communicate with an external guy? always through any ticket system.12:02
paepkecedk, if you will enforce that you will provoke that some commitors will fake a realname or all commits behind a company will look like it comes from one person. developers like to break the system ;-)12:03
yangoonpaepke: exactly, rules htat you cannot enforce are useless12:05
paepkei totally understand youre point what you wants. but i disagree that forcing an individual mailaddress will help you with youre needs.12:05
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Mithrandirasking politely sounds like a better way than trying to force it, unless you're going to say "no gmail addresses", which might well be what some people will use.12:10
bechamelMithrandir: a gmail adress is not bad, people_name@gmail.com is ok, but my_company@gmail.com or info@mycompany.com are not12:17
Mithrandirbechamel: how about iayaew@gmail.com or "bob_smith_73@gmail.com"?12:18
bechamelMithrandir: they can be considered ok as long as there are no problem with them12:20
Mithrandirit becomes a bit cumbersome if you're trying to work out whether there exists a company called iayaew, tho12:22
bechamelMithrandir: it's like one of my teacher said: it's ok to cheat as long as you are not caught :)12:23
bechameldefining rules and enforcing them are two different things12:26
Mithrandirdefining rules that can't be enforced is silly.12:27
bechamelMithrandir: except that everyone as agreed (implicitly) on the voting mechanism, while this voting mechanism can also be challenged with fake emails12:31
bechamelso what the solution ? just stop talking/voting and let cedk dictate everthing (because he can not be sure who are behind the nick on this channel and who are behind the email on the mailing list)12:33
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yangoonno need to dictate anything. just ignore patches, that are stuck, because originator (is not reachable|does not respond|whatever)12:36
bechamelyangoon: what if this patch is interesting ? should the patch be applied with this fake/non-responding email adress ?12:40
yangoonas I said, I am first of all interested in good code, so yes12:42
Mithrandirbechamel: there's no guarantee that an email address will work three months after it last worked anyway..12:42
Mithrandirpeople leave all the time12:42
bechamelyangoon: and as I said the name/email shoud be dropped and replaced by a correct email/adress (the maintainer or somebody that managed or reviewed the patch after the submition)12:44
bechamelMithrandir: but a valid email has more chance to work in 3 month that a fake one12:45
bechamelthe name on the patch is not there only for copyright but also to be able to talk with someone if a bug is discovered later12:47
bechamelI'm thinking about people who send a patch from time to time but never answer of something goes wrong later12:49
yangoonbechamel: if someone wants to contribute anonymously we should accept it12:49
bechamelwriting the code is half of the work, maintaining it is the other half12:50
Mithrandirif I submit a patch, that doesn't mean I volunteer to maintain that piece of code forever more.12:50
yangoonMithrandir: +112:50
bechamelMithrandir: if your patch is very big, it's like a poisoned gift12:51
Mithrandirbechamel: no.  Don't merge code you don't understand.12:52
Mithrandirthis is why the kernel has subsystem maintainers, people who have volunteered to maintain a piece of the kernel on an on-going basis.12:52
Mithrandirditto for driver maintainers, they12:53
Mithrandir're responsible for that driver.12:53
bechamelMithrandir: and those maintainers are well-identified isn't it ?12:54
Mithrandirand in tryton, you'd have somebody volunteering to maintain modules or subsystems and not rely on random patch submitters.12:54
bechamelyangoon: one can stay anonymous while having a unique non-fake email adress12:54
MithrandirI don't think there's a policy about them, apart from them being responsive and reading whatever they've published as their email address.12:54
Mithrandirsaying "you must have a working email address in order to maintain tryton modules/subsystems" is a whole different kettle of fish to saying "we won't accept patches unless we think you're using your personal email".12:55
Mithrandirand while you might not be trying to say the latter, it's what at least my ears have been hearing.12:55
bechamelMithrandir: yes, so maybe we need some volunters to be responsible for those anonymous contribution12:56
bechamela nurse team for orphan patches :D12:57
Mithrandirwhy wouldn't that be part of the responsibility of whoever maintains the module those patches touch?12:57
bechameldoes torvald accepts patches from qsdf@dropme.com if there are no kernel maintainer to review it ?12:59
MithrandirI don't see why he would not.13:01
bechamelMithrandir: btw there are no such "module maintainer" currently, except for the localized accouting modules13:03
Mithrandirno, then it falls back to "don't merge code you don't understand/are willing to maintain onwards"13:04
Mithrandirrelying on random patch submitters is going to end up with people having egg on their face.13:04
bechamelthis is why it's important to know who is submitting the patch13:05
Mithrandirjudge the patch, not the submitter.13:06
cedkif we don't find an agrement, I will do the rule case per case13:08
cedkbut I found it was better to have clear rules13:08
cedkabout the maintainance, it is free software nobody is required to do any kind of maintaince13:09
Mithrandirit's less about required to and more about what you expect of people.13:10
cedkMithrandir: I except to be able to communicate with them13:11
cedkdirectly13:11
Mithrandirwhile it's nice to be able to, in reality, having that expectation will leave you unhappy every now and then.13:13
cedkMithrandir: I think I don't want code from people that doesn't want to talk13:14
Mithrandircedk: you don't want code from people who might ever change jobs either? :-P13:14
cedkMithrandir: it is not what I said13:15
cedkMithrandir: if I can communicate with them when they submit patches13:15
paepkeaway13:33
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Mayank_OLI to pass some values in context in an record for model 'ir.action.act_window' , the context values are passed but not recieved in the wizard.15:41
Mayank_OLcan someone tell me how can i pass values to context from python15:41
cedkMayank_OL: if you can prevent to use context, it is better15:45
Mayank_OLcedk: i wanted to send id of a record in context ,so that it can be used.15:46
cedkMayank_OL: but you have it in data15:47
Mayank_OLcedk: data will have id of parent record, but i require id of the model from which i am creating action.15:48
cedkMayank_OL: you can not15:51
Mayank_OLcedk: is there some other way to pass it15:51
cedkMayank_OL: no15:53
cedkMayank_OL: context programing is bad and should always be avoid15:54
Mayank_OLcedk: okk, thanks for your help.15:55
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cedkMayank_OL: you should try to find a better way15:56
cedkMayank_OL: I can not help you as I don't know your target15:56
Mayank_OLcedk: i have created a model A. On saving of record in model A, an wizard action is created which have res_model='user defined= B'15:59
Mayank_OLNow, i want to access fields of model A from wizard button created  in model B.15:59
Mayank_OLcedk: can you suggest me some better way?16:00
bechamelMayank_OL: what about something like self.pool.get('modelA').search(...) in your wizard ??16:03
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cedkMayank_OL: you give a technical description so of course it is difficult to give you other one16:04
Mayank_OLbechamel: there is no such field about which i can search.16:05
cedkMayank_OL: but I think I see what you mean, it is the create the same functionnality then poweremail?16:05
Mayank_OLcedk: yes16:05
cedkMayank_OL: I'm not sure it is the right design16:06
cedkMayank_OL: but first you can propose a patch here: http://hg.tryton.org/hgwebdir.cgi/tryton/file/d82172d8481f/tryton/action/main.py#l15816:07
cedkMayank_OL: to generalize the context usage from http://hg.tryton.org/hgwebdir.cgi/tryton/file/d82172d8481f/tryton/action/main.py#l13216:07
cedkMayank_OL: otherwise, I think it could be better to have only one "poweremail" per wizard and there you allow to select the model16:08
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Mayank_OLcedk: can you elaborate the last line a bit more16:11
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cedkMayank_OL: just generate one wizard action per model and in the wizard you allow to select a record from model A16:19
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zodmaney dudes i have a question ┬┐what is it the objective/reason for create multi databases on one tryton Instance? On my mind comes this: the owner of tryton instance  have a production-database qa-dabatabase devel-database. ┬┐Exists another reason?18:59
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plantiancedk: Hey sorry we talked about this before but I forgot what your suggestion was and I just got around to trying to act on it.  If a customer needs to be credited for returning packaging supplies that are NOT tracked in inventory what is the best way to do that?  Create a consumable for that item, set a price for it and set the quantity to a negative quantity that is being returned?23:28
plantianhttp://www.tryton.org/~irclog/2010-05-26.log.htmlcons -- I found it, but I'm not sure if I should use a service or a consumable.23:42
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cedkplantian: it depends of your objectif23:53
cedkplantian: consumable is product tracked in inventory but with the asuption that there is always enough quantity23:54
cedkplantian: service is product that are not tracked at all in the inventory23:54
cedkplantian: so as in your example it is boxes, I will suggest you to use conumable23:55

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