IRC logs of #tryton for Tuesday, 2011-03-15 #tryton log beginning Tue Mar 15 00:00:01 CET 2011
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yagami_iAnybody home?14:16
yagami_iI'm looking to see if there is any movement on developing a web client for Tryton or not. I'm not familiar with Google Code so I might just be missing something here.14:21
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cedkyagami_i: for now, it is in standby14:53
cedkyagami_i: but I think sharoon is thinking about continuing it14:54
yagami_iDo you know what platform it is being developed in? As in, what languages and toolkits? (Javascript + Python or PHP or an Apache servelet in C++ or...?)14:59
yagami_iI'm very interested in it because it will solve problems for us. Ultimately, it could solve problems that would expand revenue, and allow me to toss some concrete resources at Tryton.15:00
cedkyagami_i: I started the project with GWT15:01
cedkyagami_i: it is Java code compiled into Javascript15:02
yagami_iAs in Google Web Toolkit?15:02
cedkyagami_i: GWT = Google Web Toolkit15:02
nicoeACTION wonders what is oic15:03
yagami_iWell, I'm not a big Google fan (sort of old school) but if the platform is easy to develop on, I might dust off my Javanese...15:03
cedkyagami_i: code it there
yagami_iWhoa! Its an object declaration party! I'll need to review some APIs after reading through this. Thanks for the link.15:14
cedkyagami_i: the code becomes to be a little bit old but it should still work on 1.615:15
cedkyagami_i: it is Java ;-)15:15
nicoeyagami_i: This is Java. Good luck.15:15
yagami_iI need to read a bit about GWT and see how it works. Does it perform well on OpenJDK as well? Just curious... there are some religious disputes within my company going on about Oracle vs Freedom, etc. (?)15:18
cedkyagami_i: it doesn't run any JVM :-)15:19
cedkyagami_i: the java code is transformed into javascript15:19
yagami_iBy the GWT itself?15:19
cedkyagami_i: and it is only the webbrowser that is running the code15:19
yagami_iDoes the Java turn into Javascript at the time the page loads on the client side?15:20
cedkyagami_i: the transformation is done by GWT (using a JVM of course) but it is only compilation (so only for devs)15:20
yagami_igot it15:20
cedkyagami_i: no every thing pre-compiled15:20
cedkyagami_i: and served as static javascript pages15:20
cedkyagami_i: by the HTTP server of trytond15:20
yagami_iDoes trytond have its own http server or does it need Apache?15:21
yagami_iOr, another way of asking, is it possible to integrate tryton with Apache or something like Drupal?15:21
cedkyagami_i: it has his own bundled HTTP server (comes from Python)15:21
cedkyagami_i: but  for large deployment I will suggest to put it behind a *real* HTTP server like lighttpd15:22
nicoeYou could use xml-rpc calls from drupal to connect to trytond15:22
yagami_iThat is sort of the question I was going to ask. Thanks, nicoe.15:22
cedkyagami_i: the current webclient design is to not generate html page on the fly but to comminucate with JSON-RPC directly to the trytond server15:23
yagami_iThe license is like everything else from Tryton, right? Truly GPL compliant?15:26
cedkyagami_i: you can look at for Django integration15:26
cedkyagami_i: GPLv3+15:26
yagami_iThe reason I'm asking is because the reason my company isn't developing on OpenERP right now is because of all the hidden caveats to the GPL they inserted.15:26
cedkyagami_i: I don't understand15:27
cedkyagami_i: is it about the MPL clause of OE webclient ?15:28
cedkyagami_i: nothing like that in Tryton15:30
yagami_iClients in non-European places don't care who OpenERP is if they can't speak English or German or Dutch, etc.15:30
yagami_iThe company was going to contribute resources to development but instead just decided to go with the old tried and true model -- and bought another really expensive SAP license.15:31
yagami_iI'm looking for an alternative that is similar but not anti-FOSS... and Tryton looks like a good answer.15:31
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yagami_iThe only problem is the short-term need for a web client.15:32
yagami_iCurrent client needs to be able to access ERP from any device, Linux, Mac, Android, Windows, etc. so the web client was a big deal.15:32
yagami_iIf a workable alternative can evolve for Tryton by the next project, I want to pitch it really hard at work.15:33
yagami_iThat way we won't be losing all that effort every new project that goes through with custom closed-source SAP designs.15:34
yagami_iIts not like the clients themselves are prepared to customize *any* ERP system with zero experience, so doing open source work is not a threat to the industry at all -- it just makes life way easier for everyone.15:35
cedkyagami_i: Linux, Mac and Windows are already supported by the GTK client15:37
cedkyagami_i: and it is possible to write simple website like explain in the wiki15:38
yagami_iHow about Android? And... how difficult is it to deploy on iPhone?15:38
cedkyagami_i: I think you don't need all the functionnality on those devices ?15:39
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yagami_iThe client runs a construction business, and on their actual sites during client evaluation sessions they need to make project management adjustments.15:40
sharooncedk: ping15:40
yagami_iSome of them have iPhone and some are moving to Android15:40
yagami_iSo they may.15:40
sharooncedk: my IRC client is playing up15:40
cedkyagami_i: what is project management adjustments?15:41
cedkyagami_i: is a calendar enough?15:41
yagami_iNot quite, because cost is associated with time in construction (a *lot* of cost)15:41
cedksharoon: yagami_i is looking for a webclient, I said you are/will perhaps working on it15:41
yagami_iSo... they want product categories tied to project man-hours -- this way they can use existing modules to make construction projects reflect estimated cost automatically.15:42
sharooncedk: yep, I am also keen to work on the webclient, but not sure i want to wander in the java world ;)15:42
cedkyagami_i: and you think they can do that with a phone ?15:42
yagami_iWhen they adjust the project timeline, or just one specific element of a project (like, say a customer wants to change a floor from carpet to tile, which takes more time, different materials and therefore more money) they want it to reflect in the ERP system automatically.15:42
yagami_iCurrently they have three systems working serpately: an accounting system, a project management system (VERY similar to what openobject does, but not linked to anything -- and very old Windows 98/XP code) and a paper scheduling system.15:43
yagami_iSo on site they have a spreadsheet on their iPad or iPhone (over thr web on Google docs or something) that they adjust to reflect the adjusted timeline for project components.15:44
yagami_iThis then has to be manually entered later into the project system.15:44
yagami_iThat system makes new numbers that appear on the paper project notebook prinouts the next day.15:44
yagami_iThose numbers then have to make their way to the estimator so he can manually enter them, and to the accountant so he can manually enter them after review.15:45
yagami_iIt is a big waste of time for the company. A waste of time that can be avoided if the project management is handled inside an ERP system like Tryton. It shoudl be possible for the calendar, costs and bill of materials to all be updated by the project manager on site through his computer, iPad or, in this case, phone.15:46
yagami_iSo yes, properly implemented, an ERP system will allow a project manager on a construction site who has wireless access through his iPhone to make project estimate and scheduling adjustments through his phone.15:47
yagami_iAnd this is what the client wants, by the end.15:48
cedkyagami_i: ok, so it seems you need specific edition from webclient15:48
sharooncedk: are you planning to continue the development on GWT ?15:48
cedkyagami_i: it could be done by a website written with the technology you want to will use trytond as backend for storage15:49
cedksharoon: not for now15:49
cedksharoon: but later, I think it is the right way15:49
sharooncedk: would you mind if I experiment with a JS framework rather than GWT?15:49
cedkyagami_i: so it seems you don't need to have a full functional webclient15:49
cedkyagami_i: but just the edition of the project timeline15:50
yagami_iThat is all we would need. A standards-compliant browser page allowing us access to Tryton's backend would make Tryton the platform of choice from now on.15:50
cedkyagami_i: you can ask to sharoon he does a website that display invoices15:51
yagami_iI'm not sure. If I train a user to perform tasks through his browser on his PC in the office, then he doesn't need any additional training when he goes to the field.15:51
cedksharoon: have you some more link then the wiki page about the integration of the openlabs website?15:51
sharoonyagami_i: a tutorial (bit outdated ) is there in the tryton wiki15:51
yagami_iIf I teach a user to use the GTK client, then I also have to teach him the differences to using the project module in isolation while in the field through the browser.15:52
yagami_iI'll give the wiki a solid read through and see how difficult this would be to implement.15:53
sharoonyagami_i: if you are targeting mobile devices and reading what your requirements are you might need to develop a custom web app with tryton backend, reusing same authentication and frontend using sencha touch or jquery mobile15:53
cedkyagami_i: yes but any way I don't think a webclient is good for desktop work15:53
sharooncedk: i agree - web client => desktop or minimum ipad like tablets15:54
yagami_iI understand the concerns about the web client not being optimal, but many customers in Asia actually like to give their primary suppliers limited accounts within their ERP system (usually a web-based SAP) to perform specific tasks. It is difficult to cinvince another company to install client software and train on it when everyone already has Firefox or IE...15:55
yagami_iAnd, like the example of the construction company (or the police department, which is another potential big client) or a security services company that has employees all over the place, the ability to use the timesheet functions outside of the office is best realized through the web, not through a standalone client.15:57
cedkyagami_i: for specific tasks, it can be done in a website but per example for day to day accounting I realy doubt about the webclient way15:58
yagami_iIf Facebook and Twitter work seamelessly on iPhone there is no reason Tryton shouldn't.15:58
yagami_icedk: And there I totally agree with you. The web should always be an option, though. In Japan, for example, CPAs have to get 40 credit hours per year of continuing education which requires trips. For busy small businesses who use their accountant for bookkeeping as well as expense approvals it is difficult to do without one for an entire week. If he could log in from a hotel computer on the web just once in a while it would releive16:00
yagami_i a client-side concern that SAP already addresses.16:00
cedkyagami_i: yes but they don't have the same requirement level16:01
yagami_iTrue. But that is difficult to a client who is about to spend money paying developers to expand an open source project like Tryton.16:01
yagami_iIn the end that is where the open source arguments get weak. *I* fully understand what you are saying because you and I develop software and have a love for technology.16:02
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yagami_iA client is a specialist in toy manufacturing, machine calibration or delivery services -- and therefore the superior tech argument is less convincing than pricepoints, feature lists and mindshare.16:03
yagami_iTelling a client you can log in from any web-capable device is a *huge* selling point in any industry outside of office-only work. And most work in emerging economies is *not* done in offices. That is where open source ERP solutions can make a huge impact.16:04
yagami_iAlternatively, is there a way to cut down the GTK client for Android and iPhone?16:05
yagami_iThat is a possible shortcut that could generate money for me to put some developers on polishing Tryton off...16:05
cedkyagami_i: for iPhone I don't think16:05
cedkyagami_i: but there is this
cedkyagami_i: it will require to port gtk client to gtk+3 but should not be a hard work16:08
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yagami_iThat gnome blog link is thoroughly interesting.16:11
yagami_iI'm going to see how far I can implement the current SAP solution in Tryton (after reading everything I can find about your project up to now). Then I'll see what's missing and come back and bother you again.16:12
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cedkyagami_i: ok no problems16:12
yagami_ibtw, what you are doing is exactly what the open source ERP world needs.16:12
nicoeThanks !16:13
sharoonnicoe: you were investigating the porting to python 3 ?16:14
nicoesharoon: I did some tests a month or so ago16:15
sharoonnicoe: what are the results of your investigation?16:15
sharoonnicoe: do you think its feasible?16:15
nicoeThat the port does not seems difficult to do16:16
nicoeI don't remember the figures but it looked like something doable in less than a week of work (provided the other libraries already work of course)16:17
nicoe(maybe even less than that a week)16:17
sharoonnicoe: i checked it up too and main difficulties i observed were psycopg (which seems to have been resolved) and unicode issues assuming we could use xml.etree for view xml16:18
sharoonnicoe: if you are coordinating a sprint for the migration i will be glad to help16:18
nicoeThe unicode issue is IMHO not that difficult once you grokked the python unicode way16:18
sharoonnicoe: we could use unicodenazi to test the current implementation, though its really annoying16:19
cedksharoon: any we will keep for at least one more year the code in 2 and just provide migration with 2to3 in setup16:19
sharooncedk: of course we should maintain existing releases the way they are16:20
sharooncedk: so are you thinking of 2.1/2 as python 3 compatible?16:20
cedksharoon: why not16:21
cedksharoon: if there is enough ressources :-)16:21
sharooncedk: count me in +116:22
nicoeIt looks like a good objective for me16:22
sharoonnicoe: we could organise a sprint for this ?16:22
sharoonnicoe: what abt libraries like relatorio?16:23
sharoonnicoe: shouldnt we first start with our dependent libraries ?16:23
cedksharoon: yes16:23
nicoeYou're right, but I think that relatorio is not a big issue since a lot of the work is done by lxml and genshi16:23
sharoonnicoe: is lxml available for py3k ?16:24
nicoeI know that a patch for genshi has been proposed on the mailing list16:24
nicoeFor lxml I remember searching for the information but I don't remember the outcome16:25
sharoonnicoe: i just tested vatnumber on python 3. it doesnt work since suds is not available for python 316:31
sharoonnicoe: we may have to start there :D16:31
cedksharoon: suds is optional :-)16:33
sharooncedk: a dumb question - how do i install without the extra_requires?16:34
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sharooncedk: its listed as a optional in but there is not ImportError handling in the code16:37
cedksharoon: the import is done in the only method that uses it16:38
sharooncedk: got you16:38
sharoonshall i clone the repo to a python 3k branch?16:38
cedksharoon: no everything in the same repo16:43
sharoonin the unittest assert_ is depreciated16:43
sharoonwe have to use assertTrue16:43
cedksharoon: as soon as it is available on 2.516:45
sharooncedk: it is available in unittest2 module which is available for python 2.516:46
yagami_iJust a casual suggestion: if you are going to change the major version number of your underlying engine, I would also advance on majore version number in Tryton as well.16:46
sharooncedk: i think we may need to use fallbacks16:46
sharoonyagami_i: thats the way its usually done16:46
yagami_iThis is because it would affect the installed userbase significantly, 2.0 to 2.1 looks like a minor version upgrade. But for an end user on a system (Ubuntu or Fedora, say) that does not yet have Python3 in its repository this would suddenly break everything in surprising ways.16:47
sharoonyagami_i: we will not break support for python 2.5+16:47
yagami_isharoon: above I say the suggetsion that 2.1 be P3, that's all...16:47
cedkexplain how we are numbering16:49
yagami_iSprry, haven't gotten that far reading yet. (!o!)16:49
yagami_iSilly me, I hadn't seen your calendar.16:49
yagami_iBah! Brussels time?!?16:50
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yagami_iNew timezone gymnastics for me...16:50
cedksharoon: assert_ is still there in 3k ?16:51
yagami_i<preps a political grenade> It's not like the EU isn't slowly breaking up anyway... <drops grenade -- but in a friendly, trolling, sort of way>16:51
cedksharoon: because just deprecate warning could be keep until drop of 216:51
sharooncedk: its only warning16:52
sharoonits not dropped16:52
sharoonit will be dropped in 3.3 only16:52
cedksharoon: so keep it16:52
sharoonthen there are no changes16:52
cedksharoon: and is 2to3 not change it ?16:52
sharooncedk: 2to3 will not change it16:52
cedksharoon: I think there is preprocessor in 2to3 which we could use perhaps?16:53
sharoon2to3 does not have these fixers16:53
cedksharoon: otherwise there is one change: add 3k classifier :-)16:53
sharooncedk: yes16:53
nicoeACTION wonders why nobody trolls on yagami_i16:59
nicoeyagami_i: At first belgium disolves then Spain afterwards Netherlands got flooded and then we're gone ;)17:00
yagami_inicoe: I'm feeling more like Germany makes a serparate peace with Russia, thinking it can be the Euro-Czar -- but forgetting that money has its limits as a public control feature (the way France discovered before 1914)... and then Europe becomes, once again, a collection of individually brilliant, but geographically constrained nations competing and working together alternately according to interest.17:04
yagami_iBut even a tiny European country is more influential than any other global country than big players like Russia, Israel, Japan, China, or of course, the US... so thw world doesn't change so much as it just gets really interesting...17:05
yagami_iBut that's not Tryton. And I'm also wondering why nobody counter-trolled. lol.17:06
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nicoeI don't think Belgium has *that* much of influence you now (because otherwise the lack of government here would be a real problem)17:08
yagami_iNo, it doesn't create domestic policy yet, but domestic policy control is what Germany has been de-facto enforcing through its influence in the ECB via bailout packages. That is what the Irish were so upset about, not just corporate tax rate hikes. Basically, the only real power a sovergn has is taxation/expense and military action. Military action depends on expenses, however, so it really comes down to taxation and expense policy.17:13
yagami_i Berlin can create levers through the EU via the ECB by underwriting public bailouts. That removes sovereignty and delivers control to the EU through the terms of a Berlin-supported ECB debt-relief package... and that means eventually, once discussion go beyond talk about numbers and book and fights actually break out, that the EU should splinter.17:13
yagami_iblah blah blah. Lots of blather. I'm from Texas. Don't mind me. I am a stupid, fat, American who likes war and porn and can't read. What do I know.17:14
plantianyagami_i:  Ha you're just still bitter that Texas failed to secede. No matter how many unions you break you still can't get Texas out of the United States.17:24
yagami_iYou, my friend, are almost a genius.17:25
yagami_iSee, we didn't really *want* to succeed after all. This way we can show California how stupid thye are for not truly embracing the open market model America was built on.17:25
bechamelabout web stuff: imo it would be interesting to create tryton models with backbone.js and implement all rpc stuff (read, write, on_change, etc) to have something like proteus in the browser17:27
yagami_iAnd now California is in debt and being so scared about "God Damn Foreigners!" and "God Damn Mexicans!" while suffering brownouts... and Texans can simply say, "yeah, Mexians... we were part of Mexico.. got independence... and don't have an income tax anymore because that sucks. and now we profit from those 'damn Mexicans' and also profit from all the smart companies who moved here from California..." lulz17:27
sharoonACTION Am i in the right channel ????17:27
bechamelthen one can imagine creating little custom app for phones and tablets and in parallel a more complete client with full views17:28
yagami_ibechamel: hmmm... this is an interesting idea17:28
sharoonbechamel: looks good to me as well17:28
yagami_iWhy not a cut-down of the way the openerp web-client works, where it simply is a translator between the ERP back-end and HTML instead of GTK?17:29
yagami_isharoon: yes, you are in the right channel... I was just being an ass and plantian was being smart17:29
bechamelI succed to do a simple web client like that (with custom views) with on_change most of fields type, pyson evaluation and co, but the code wasn't very clean17:30
yagami_iHow many GTK objects do we use regularly? If they coudl be re-resolved or translated as equivalent HTML5 links/objects then the problem becomes a little more elementary?17:30
yagami_iDo you have a public link?17:31
bechamelbut i discovered backbone.js meanwhile and I think it can become something cool17:31
plantianbechamel:  Why not just a python web framework ?17:31
bechamelyagami_i: no, but I can put something online17:31
yagami_iThis translation between GTK and web-language is the key to the web client success OpenERp is seeing. Unfotunately for them big players eschew the OpenERP weird licenses and the coding of the whole system is a little sticky compared to the cleaner Tryton coding (from what I'ev seen across a day of reading now).17:32
bechamelplantian: javascript is far more pleasant than writing ugly templates17:32
yagami_ibechamel: +1 on that17:32
yagami_ipython is sweet, but in a way I prefer it more for prototyping. Which brings me to another point. How would Tryton respond to a case where, say, 10,000 users need to log on? (i.e. Honda Corporation)17:33
yagami_iProcess spawnign is cheap in Linux, and threads are insecure, so the "single threaded" argument is misplaced. But how to make Tryton multi-process efficiently?17:34
bechamelyagami_i: launch mutliple instance of tryton17:35
yagami_iWith PostgreSQL as the backend this is not as big a problem as it sounds...17:35
yagami_iCan multiple instances of Tryton easily be segregated when using the same database? For example, can I create (ideally) an accounting, project management, CRM/sales, accounts receivable, accounts payable instances independently without running into weird problems?17:37
nicoebechamel: you will need something in front of the trytons to do the load balancing17:37
yagami_iIn other words, if I tell a Tryton instance to listen on port A and another to listen on port B (thereby giving me two processes of Python to use independently) can I be sure that the same database they are accessing won't end up with versioning conflicts?17:38
yagami_iHrm... load balancing....17:38
yagami_iThere is a lot of good study on that elsewhere that we can rererence/use.17:39
bechamelnicoe: yes17:39
nicoeyagami_i: the piece of code I am talking about (the load balancing tryton proxy) could be used for this17:39
cedkyagami_i: you can always have concurrency update issue but this is managed by PostgreSQL transaction17:39
sharoonyagami_i: we use multiple instances of tryton, which are behind apache mod_wsgi as we serve couple of websites from tryton17:39
nicoecedk: exactly what I was going to say17:40
yagami_iso, potentially, a PostgreSQL server can sit behin an array of trytond servers sitting behind a load-balancing service/server and thereby permit scaling of a Python project to tens of thousands of users?17:40
nicoethis piece of code of course does not yet exist :D17:40
yagami_iBecause that is awesome.17:41
plantianI'm sure we will have money delivered in dump trucks to us when this problem arises.17:41
yagami_iIt is not entirely unforseeable, my friend.17:42
yagami_iI mean the problem, not the dump yrucks, per se.17:42
nicoeI don't know if this design is able to support tens of thousands of users because this need to be tested (heavily)17:44
plantianbechamel: Backbone.js is just for client?  Sorry, disregard what I said earlier, I thought it was for server-side.17:44
bechamelplantian: yes backbone is a js library implementing MVC (but model, collection, view)17:45
yagami_inicoe: naturally any deplpyment of that scale would need to be tested to an extreme degree (in any case the actual deployment would test the software more heavily and painfully than anyone could imagine anyway...)17:49
yagami_iBut starting with a concept base is better than starting from nowehere.17:49
bechamelyagami_i: unzip the archive, change trytond config to point to this location (for jsondata_path) and activate json_rpc17:54
bechamel.. and point your browser to the correct host/port17:55
yagami_iomg... is this awesome?17:56
yagami_iI need to give this a close look. Thank you.17:56
yagami_iActually, I have about a solid week of work to get a full and deep idea of where Tryton is at now.17:57
bechamelI developed  it with tryton 1.6, I don't no if it works with recent versions17:57
yagami_iThis is ignoring my shallow memory of the Python and Java APIs.17:57
yagami_iRegressing to 1.6 is not a problem for a client (from a business perspective) as long as json can move forward without too much problem and the 1.6 databases can be upgraded without any serious pain.17:58
bechamelyagami_i: as I said not all widget are implemented and IMO the code is too messy17:58
yagami_iMessy can be refactored. Widgets can be cut out or implemented. The place to start is good.17:59
bechamelyagami_i: but it shows that it's not difficult to do in javascript , and it would be possible to have a nice implementation with something like backbone18:00
yagami_iIn the end, there are actually several nice prospective mini-projects under Tryton. This is impressive, actually.18:01
yagami_iThe key now is to pick an implementation that becomes canonical and put all efforts toward it.18:01
yagami_iIt doesn't really matter which one it is -- there are several good ideas out there already, clearly.18:01
bechamelthe problem is that some people wants full client, other wants client for Iphone, other wants clients for their customers, etc18:02
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bechamelthis is why I talk about first implementing something like proteus18:03
yagami_iI think full client is always the correct answer. This means, specifically, that all core GTK functionality is implemented (this could include or exclude print to ps/pdf, or other random extensions).18:03
bechamelyagami_i: "full client"  -> why not the gtk one ?18:04
yagami_iIf a standard framework exists to implement GTK objects/handles in a browser (in other words translate GTK buttons to HTML5 buttons) then a clear specification for a web client can be built.18:05
yagami_iBecause the key thing preventing most customers from choosing an open source project over SAP is the marketing bullet that says "accessible from any browser"18:05
yagami_iThis is the key to making Tryton accessible to huge groups with lots of money.18:06
yagami_iSpecifically, this is the key to making ERP customization companies choose Tryton + a web-server as a back-end through a browser interface. This means those servicing companies never contribute development effort/money/time to open source projects.18:07
yagami_iInstead we keep wasting effort/money/time on one-time-only projects that customize web-based SAP deployments for huge clients. And all that effort and money is wasted because we can't re-use the code again because they way the silly licensing agreements are written.18:08
bechamelyagami_i: we should work towards what we think is the good solution and not listen marketing bs :)18:09
bechamelyagami_i: and educate people18:09
yagami_iWe might write 30 modules for a single client, all deliverable through the web. Those modules will never see use outside the single client because money will  never be spent on solutions like Tryton unless we can at least offer a comparable service as per marketing points.18:09
yagami_iEducating people is one thing, but "people" don't make multi-million dollar product decisions. Usually about two or three people do. ERP experts are not folks they hang out with on the weekends.18:10
yagami_iSo the marketing bullets are the key to securing serious development cash for open source business solutions.18:10
yagami_iThis is what Red Hat realized and everyone else (including Novell, surprisingly) failed on with Linux.18:11
yagami_iThis is what Microsoft understood before they ever understood how to write decent software.18:11
yagami_iThis is so important that Microsoft was able to build an entire empire on top of totally shit software, and the BSD world has never gotten past the occasional BIND and email server room.18:12
yagami_iAnd BSD working on an awesome collection of brilliance...18:12
yagami_iSo education < money18:12
bechamelyagami_i: interesting discussion, but I have to leave18:12
bechamellatter maybe18:12
yagami_iand Money dep. marketing18:12
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plantianDoes anyone have an idea of what might cause this? --
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