| chat.freenode.net #tryton log beginning Tue Dec 16 00:00:01 CET 2008 | ||
| 2008-12-16 00:32 -!- cedk(n=ced@gentoo/developer/cedk) has left #tryton | ||
| 2008-12-16 00:33 <CIA-53> tryton: ced roundup * #674/Modules: Userside switching language doesn't work any longer: Can you put the logs of the server? | ||
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| 2008-12-16 09:29 <CIA-53> tryton: Timitos roundup * #676/cannot cancel install wizard: [new] i tried to create a new db with newest changesets. everythings was ok at creation. when i logged into the new db user creation wizard popped ... | ||
| 2008-12-16 09:34 <CIA-53> tryton: Timitos roundup * #677/error in tax code creation from tax code templates: [new] i updated our account chart module account_de_skr03_2008 with a more complex structure of tax codes. the tax codes are imported correctly in ... | ||
| 2008-12-16 09:39 <CIA-53> tryton: Timitos roundup * #676/cannot cancel install wizard: [resolved] sorry. my fault. forgot hg fupdate. | ||
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| 2008-12-16 10:08 <CIA-53> tryton: Timitos roundup * #678/validation error in xml of purchase module: [new] i tried to install purchase on a ubuntu 8.04 machine. i get this validation errors: i do not get theses errors on a ubuntu 7.10 machine [Tu ... | ||
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| 2008-12-16 10:13 <CIA-53> tryton: udo.spallek * r383 /wiki/TrytonLDAPIntegration.wiki: including Tryton attribute to field descriptions | ||
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| 2008-12-16 10:39 -!- Cristi_an(n=Cristi@89.120.211.206) has joined #tryton | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:40 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> yesterday rvalyi said : | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:40 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> mean, to manage to build a full blown generic ERP, you have no choice be also master a modular plateform, like Eclispe. Else it's not modular, it's monolithic and hererogene like SAP, but that second option means a LOT of money to maintain it | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:40 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> from what i see tryton seems to be modular.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:40 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> something like eclipse... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:40 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> what was his point then ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:41 <cedk> Cristi_an: i don't know | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:42 <Cristi_an> cedk, from modularity poin of view Tryton stays very well.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:42 <Cristi_an> maybe ...removing modules will not hurt to have | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:42 <CIA-53> tryton: Timitos roundup * #679/KeyError: 'salable': [new] Traceback (most recent call last): File "/tryton/gui/window/view_form/view/form_gtk/many2one.py", line 329, in sig_new window=self._wi ... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:43 <CIA-53> tryton: Timitos roundup * #679/KeyError: 'salable': [chatting] tried to create a product from invoice line form | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:45 <udono> Cristi_an: in the long run I think we need a completed modules management not only with state 'depends'. More over with states like 'conflicts' and 'provides' like a distribution management like dpkg/apt or portage have... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:46 <Cristi_an> yee but now there are more important things to be done.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:46 <Cristi_an> like some very good and stable basic modules... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:47 <Cristi_an> that what you said is the nice to have but not mandatory | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:47 <udono> Cristi_an: I think so, too. | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:48 <udono> Cristi_an: it will become mandatory when we have a lot of more modules to maintain like openERP. They have massive problems with a missing modules management, I think... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:48 <Cristi_an> agree | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:54 <udono> Cristi_an: on the other side, the modules of B2CK are constructed like we have already a completed modules management. They are builded generical, so they could be reused ealsily with or without a module management, I think. If you say for example, the Party module 'depends' on the Country module, or the Country module 'provides' country resource to Partner module is just a small change to the modules self... | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:55 <Cristi_an> last part i did not understoot "Partner module is just a small change to the modules self.." | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:55 <Cristi_an> uderstood | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:55 <Cristi_an> /understood/understood | ||
| 2008-12-16 10:56 <Cristi_an> you mean Country may be used for other modules easily ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:02 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1118:d8360e183d08 tryton/tryton/gui/window/email.py: Fix typo | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:02 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1119:bf41f7ef5a3d tryton/doc/usage.rst: Add doc for email | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:04 <udono> Cristi_an: no, I talk about the 'complete' module management in future. country and party module can easily transformed to another relationship then actually 'depends' when we have them. But what you say is right, too, Country may be used for other modules easily... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:05 <Cristi_an> cool ! | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:07 <udono> Cristi_an: I am just dreaming. Not more. | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:09 <Cristi_an> udono, i hope your dreams come true... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <rvayi> udono: I already tought about a web2.0 portal for users to report conflicts and everything they think about modules; how to improve them, if they are dead, if an other is better... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> rvayi, good you are here | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> i wanted to ask you something | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> #tryton :[freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> yesterday rvalyi said : | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> mean, to manage to build a full blown generic ERP, you have no choice be also master a modular plateform, like Eclispe. Else it's not modular, it's monolithic and hererogene like SAP, but that second option means a LOT of money to maintain it | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> from what i see tryton seems to be modular.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> something like eclipse... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:10 <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> <Cristi_an> what was his point then ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:11 <cedk> rvayi: for use it is roundup | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:13 <rvayi> Cristi_an: well; IMHO both OpenERP and Tryton achieve something that is less polish, may be less consistent, but probably just as effcient if not more (because it is simpler) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:13 <rvayi> Cristi_an: and for sure, I've been looking at others oss ERP's no one have something coming close | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:13 <rvayi> Openbravo is just running after modularity now... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:14 <Cristi_an> ii saw som erps myself as well | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:14 <rvayi> but I fear it's only a buszzword for them, they are VERY VERY far from that kind of modularity | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:14 <Cristi_an> not deep but on surface | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:14 <Cristi_an> Tryton seems to have the best modularity (open erp as well i guess) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:15 <rvayi> Cristi_an: weel, I had the oppportunity to go deeper sa the company were I'm working (Smile.fr) funded a 9 man month comparison/study around oss ERP's | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:15 <rvayi> Cristi_an: sure | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:15 <Cristi_an> rvayi, i use eclipse every day...and indeed it;s modularity is stable and quite nice done | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:15 <Cristi_an> rvayi, really | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:15 <Cristi_an> ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:16 <Cristi_an> rvayi, why did ythey do that ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:16 <rvayi> Cristi_an: OpenERP and Tryton are lacking some static constraints Eclipse have, but on the other hand the OpenERP/Tryton extension system is very efficient | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:17 <Cristi_an> rvayi, by comparing ERP systems can you make some public results out of that study ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:17 <rvayi> Cristi_an: because they wanted to choose the best tool for an their ERP consultancy and also because we had to tell the world now we also integrate ERP's | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:17 <rvayi> I wrote this during that time (French): http://www.smile.fr/publications/livres-blancs/erp-open-source | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:19 <rvayi> Tryton came too late for it. yeah, in the report Openbravo tends to be overestimated, that's for sure. But could couldn't come and say: hello: unfortunately I'm sad to say that only one product is correct and it's called TinyERP, others are just plain crap... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:20 <rvayi> Note I'm not telling OpenERP is perfect, but it's really not too bad either | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:20 <Cristi_an> i see | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:20 <rvayi> I guess Tryton should be auite as good then. From now one, I would certainly rate Tryton as the second best oss ERP after OpenERP | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:21 <udono> rvayi: :-) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:21 <Cristi_an> what about Adempiere,compirer,Jfire | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:21 <rvayi> Cristi_an: also concerning Openbravo, they raised 18M$ in total, so may be they come up with something one day, so we gave them a chance I should say. | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:21 <rvayi> Cristi_an: Adempiere: it's a bit the Tryton of Compiere | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:22 <Cristi_an> OpenBravo had some EU funding received | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:22 <rvayi> Cristi_an: IMHO Compiere is acceptable but very expensive and the techno is very stupid compared to OpenERP, the abstraction level is just too low | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:22 <rvayi> Admepier doens't really do better. They just open a space for the old compiere customers/intergartors fed up with Compiere costs | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:23 <rvayi> JFire and a few other ones might have a better tech basis, but I think they are very far in term of features and it will take them really too long to come even close | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:24 <Cristi_an> I would like to do ...but i gave up to the ideea to do somethign simlar that Tryton is | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:24 <rvayi> BTW, May be they will be stopped by OpenERP. I mean, now that the world will understand that their is an ERP that doesn't suck, they will try it, I really doubt they will change for something else (may be Tryton) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:25 <Cristi_an> but in JAva usign Eclispe RCP... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:25 <Cristi_an> and Spring | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:25 <rvayi> Cristi_an: sure, but IMHO; it takes like 3 years to build an ERP. And OpenERP is already their, will be like free, so I think their is no more space | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:26 <rvayi> BTW, I would rather use JRuby on Rails than the J2EE bloated stack | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:26 <Cristi_an> i figured that also | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:26 <rvayi> I started an ActiveResource OpenERP wrapper BTW, only a prooof of concept | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:26 <Cristi_an> Tryton seems to be ...for me at least | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:26 <Cristi_an> the best choice...,but since i developed in java for lat 10 years... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:27 <Cristi_an> is difficult to understant details in the code (python) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:27 <rvayi> Cristi_an: IMHO: OpenERP/Tryton could be like 10% more productive using JRuby/Rails (+java where it makes sense at the low level, like webservice, XML, not for the funbctionnal layer) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:27 <Cristi_an> but as you said...there is no space | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:27 <rvayi> but even running 10%, by starting from scratch, one will never come close to them | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:27 <Cristi_an> and time... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:27 <Cristi_an> BTW | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:28 <Cristi_an> ruby is not only WEB ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:28 <rvayi> Cristi_an: I was myself a Java progarmer since 2003 | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:28 <rvayi> not at all, have a look to monkeybars or JRuby swing dev | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:28 <Cristi_an> it follows the pythons path ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:28 <Cristi_an> 2 years ago... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:28 <rvayi> Cristi_an: Ruby is just the best langague to model business things | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:29 <Cristi_an> hmmmm....:) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:29 <Cristi_an> your are evengelist of ruby ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:29 <Cristi_an> :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:29 <Cristi_an> you know pyton as well ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:30 <rvayi> So I was saying: I was coding Java since 2003? I first started my study with Openbravo, while disregarding TinyERP which I was thinking their is not enough code, how could this be serious. Aftyer a Fabien Pickaesr demo, I said: wow there are MUCH more features in Tiny than any others I've seen | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:31 <rvayi> Then gave it a try and I could do things very advanced very quickly while I couldn't to the most basic stuff with Openbravo, lost in their build process, hugly code generation stuff and all that crap | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:32 <Cristi_an> nice to hear about you experience | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:33 <Cristi_an> but how come you come to the conclusion the ruby is best for bussines models ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:33 <rvayi> Cristi_an: I guess my Ruby on Rails experience with dynamic languages helped me to get used to dynamic languages | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:34 <Cristi_an> rvayi, but for enterproise appications....nobody use ruby | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:34 <Cristi_an> rvayi, until Tryton | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:34 <Cristi_an> i did not even heard about python being used for such things | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:35 <rvayi> Cristi_an: it's very cannonical: very easy to read and you'll always find a way to model things with less words than you need to explain it in plain english. Somthing you really can't do in Java were boiler code willa arrise (decorators, factories, Spring; XML and all that pluming crap) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:35 <rvayi> Cristi_an: Python is almost as good a Ruby IMHO | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:35 <rvayi> not as good, but quite close, so I'm mean it's ok | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:35 <Cristi_an> rvayi, but you have the expertise to say that....do you know both languages | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:35 <Cristi_an> ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:36 <rvayi> Cristi_an: you mean Python and Ruby? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:36 <Cristi_an> yes | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:36 <rvayi> I know Java VERY well and Ruby quite well. I'm less used to Python but I'm typically very comfortable with writing OpenERP functionnal modules | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:37 <rvayi> not the orm or osv internal layers were some more magic happens | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:37 <Cristi_an> in terms of java i may say the same as you | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:37 <Cristi_an> that is what intrigues me :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:37 <rvayi> Cristi_an: for instance Python will do len(my_funcking_table) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:37 <rvayi> to get the lenghth | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:37 <rvayi> this is fucking stupid an hugly | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:38 <rvayi> Ruby, on the contrary will do [1,3,4].length | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:38 <rvayi> Ruby (re-powered by Rails) can do things like 3.days_ago and give you the date 3 days ago | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:39 <rvayi> Java will use a ton of different redundant hugy helpers for that | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:39 <rvayi> sucking my neurones for remembering what the fucking date helper might be and do in the pecular framework? Ruby just free my mind of all that crap | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:40 <rvayi> and let me do what really matters | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:41 <rvayi> Cristi_an: Ruby hadn't to invent Jasper and a all the taglib system crap. An HTMl tag in Ruby is just a Ruby standard closure, a usual Ruby statement, no need to re-invent crappy libs | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:42 <Cristi_an> Jasper Reports you mean ? (or is an english say ) :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:42 <rvayi> when you open and close (or say a DB transaction) a file in Ruby, using a closure again, then you are sure that it will be closed later, it's enforced by te syntax, no need to use PMD code checker or anything else here | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:43 <Cristi_an> in python si more complicated ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:43 <rvayi> Cristi_an: no was talking about the Jasper JSP templating engine (for web dev). | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:43 <rvayi> Cristi_an: it's less beautifull than Ruby | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:43 <Cristi_an> there are a lot of them | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:44 <rvayi> and Ruby has JRuby which is just brillant, the best Ruby implementation now, letting call/delegate to java whenever you need (for speed for instance) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:44 <Cristi_an> speed in Java ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:44 <rvayi> Cristi_an: Java has C speed, remeber. Python and Ruby don't come close | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:44 <Cristi_an> Java...c speed ? common | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:44 <rvayi> but JRuby and Python are still faster than PHP for instance | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:45 <Cristi_an> ! | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:45 <rvayi> yep | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:45 <Cristi_an> no way...it is close...but still a virtual machine | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:45 <rvayi> Cristi_an: a warmed up JVM runs at C speed and sometimes faster | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:45 -!- ikks(n=igor@190.12.153.202) has joined #tryton | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:45 <Cristi_an> it isa fast now...agree | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:46 <Cristi_an> it evolved...a lot | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:46 <Cristi_an> since 2000 | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:46 <rvayi> Cristi_an: a VM ca do hot optimisations a static ccompiler can't do, because hotspot optimize the code from a statistically analysis of its true real call path | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:46 <rvayi> Cristi_an: a lot? You loosed if you missed that | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:46 <rvayi> err, mean a lot | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:46 <rvayi> let number speak: | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:47 <rvayi> Cristi_an: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/java.php | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:48 <Cristi_an> wow | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:48 <rvayi> that site is a reference if you think their is a fraud, just send a better algo fro your favorite language, everyone does it (but the algo should stay the same) and this is how it stands | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:49 <rvayi> Cristi_an: memeory consumption is higher, and VM startup is slower, but in a server model, it's just better because it runs as fast and it's easier to code/maintain | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:49 <Cristi_an> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=java&lang2=python | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:49 <rvayi> JRuby just surfed on the JVM perf, beating C Ruby | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:49 <rvayi> Cristi_an: welcome | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:50 <Cristi_an> brrrrrrrrr | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:50 <rvayi> I guit form Amadeus (very big IT firm doing ERP's for airlines) because the tech boss got it plain wrong with Java | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:50 <rvayi> so we were doing C++ because he thought Java was a crap... | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:51 <Cristi_an> :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:51 <rvayi> I will laugh a lot when their stuff will die costing millions just because they were so wrong | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:51 <Cristi_an> wish them the best...dot be cruel | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:53 <rvayi> Cristi_an: air travel crashed alon, no need to invoke tech issues ;-) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:53 <rvayi> yet an other visonnary stance from them ;-) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:55 <cedk> The bottleneck of Tryton is not Python but PostgreSQL | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:55 <Cristi_an> why ??? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:55 <rvayi> cedk: why? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:56 <rvayi> beacuse it's complicated so noobs can't use it? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:56 <Cristi_an> is that very hard to migrate to mysql or firebird ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:56 <Cristi_an> or to even make it DB independent (as much as possible ) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:57 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1120:220849c7282d tryton/tryton/gui/window/view_form/view/ (form.py list.py): Better label for print menutoolbutton | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:57 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1121:0d287f339117 tryton/tryton/gui/window/fileactions.py: Use a treeview for file actions | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:58 <bechamel> the bottleneck is not postgres itself, but the number of query that are sent to it (another dbms will not improve the situation) | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:58 <cedk> because for data integrity, we need to use serialize connection | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:59 <cedk> bechamel: no, it is not necessary the number of queries, because if so we can reduce it | ||
| 2008-12-16 11:59 <bechamel> cedk: yes, the bottleneck is the developer :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:00 <Cristi_an> do you have a real use case ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:00 <cedk> and it is not postgresql that is not performant, but for what we need to do, it is normal that postgresql take some times | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:00 <cedk> anyway, there is always a bottleneck in a application | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:00 <Cristi_an> when do you sense that a bottleneck happens...? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:00 <cedk> it is not that the software is slow | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:01 <cedk> Cristi_an: as I just say, there is always a bottleneck | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:01 <Cristi_an> cedk, sorry fopr not understanding ..you talk to general | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:02 <udono> ACTION Laotse say: When there is a bottle, then you have a bottelneck | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:03 <Cristi_an> "_ | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:03 <Cristi_an> :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:03 <cedk> Cristi_an: what I say is that teh part of Tryton that determined the time for a request is PostgreSQL not Python code | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:03 <Cristi_an> cedk, the only thiong may be then SQL | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:04 <Cristi_an> cedk, but you are sure that the SQL cause the bottleneck ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:04 <Cristi_an> there may be some bussines logic that is nto done optimum | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:05 <cedk> Cristi_an: I don't think so, where do you find that Tryton is slow ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:06 <Cristi_an> well....i told you before.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:06 <Cristi_an> in windows... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:06 <Cristi_an> the UI..seems slower then a native applicaiton even thatn a java one... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:06 <cedk> Cristi_an: and you must always make compromise between speed and (modularity, readablity, ...) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:07 <Cristi_an> maybe because of what rvayi said... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:07 <Cristi_an> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=java&lang2=python | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:07 <Cristi_an> anyway the slowness is not seen by a regular user... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:07 <Cristi_an> they can live ver very well with it | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:07 <bechamel> Cristi_an: most of the business logic result in more sql queries, not python computation (there is no intensive computing, just read-write data) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:07 <Cristi_an> i see... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:07 <Cristi_an> i am just worried a little | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:08 <bechamel> Cristi_an: the first exe for windows was slow, did you tried the last version ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:08 <Cristi_an> since i will switch to python.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:08 <Cristi_an> btw ...exc eptr you 2 ....there is somebody that can update the core..(ORM) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:09 <bechamel> as i said, slow code are often due to a bad algo/bad development not the langage itself | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:10 <Cristi_an> ok then...i berlive you 100% | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:10 <Cristi_an> anyway for me is to early to ...to express my opinions (only my concerns) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:13 <Cristi_an> thx for all | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:13 <Cristi_an> BTW :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:14 <cedk> Cristi_an: to update the core, I guess that OpenERP devs can also | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:14 <Cristi_an> ??? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:15 <Cristi_an> the core is rewritten by you no ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:15 <cedk> Cristi_an: as it comes from the same code, they must be able to undrestood the changes we made | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:18 <rvayi> cedk: OpenERp now have caches levels in its ORM and for Python computed fields. This certainly limit the number of queries. Does Tryton has something similar? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:20 <cedk> rvayi: no, because we don't think it is a good design | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:20 <rvayi> cedk: why? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:21 <cedk> rvayi: and as bechamel said, it is generally because of bad programming that the system is slow | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:21 <cedk> rvayi: if it is coputed fields, so stored will make duplicate data | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:22 <cedk> rvayi: so you need a mecanism to synchronised it | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:22 <cedk> rvayi: and by experience, synchro is most of the time bad | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:22 <Cristi_an> in java any ORM sytem that has long history like, Hibernate,TopLink etc...have leves of cache...and they are used in real huge prod systems... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:22 <Cristi_an> why shoudl tht be considered as bad desing | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:23 <cedk> Cristi_an: we have cache but we don't store computed field in the database | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:23 <cedk> Cristi_an: and event, we have a caches with size limited (not like OpenERP) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:24 <Cristi_an> well that depends so much if the computed filed can be done from the same row is not need to store that...but if that envolves more...is useful at least from my experience | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:25 <Cristi_an> having a too normalized db is not that good (even if theory said it is) ....maybe i did not understood so ignore then what i just said | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:25 <cedk> Cristi_an: for what I know, most of the use of function fields, can be writen without too much cost | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:26 <rvayi> Cristi_an: and Rails (just implemented same cache levels as well) BTW IMHO the cache invalidation system of OpenERP is clean | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:29 <Cristi_an> rvayi, "BTW IMHO the cache invalidation system of OpenERP is clean" ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:29 <rvayi> Cristi_an: I mean: they have ways to register triggers that will invalidate a cached field, see th sale_order implementation | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:30 <cedk> rvayi: I don't think so, the first issue I saw is for inheritage | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:32 <cedk> rvayi: and by the way, it is not an invalidation of the cache but a re-compute of the field | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:33 <cedk> so if you have a field that depends on many records, it will be recomputed very often | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:33 <cedk> even if you don't read it | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:36 <cedk> by example, each time the invoice is written, it computes the 3 amounts (untaxed, tax, total) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:36 <cedk> so in the workflow of the invoice, there is many write to change the status | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:36 <cedk> so each time the amounts are computed | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:37 <cedk> I don't find it is a good design, nor a speed improvement | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:37 <Cristi_an> but you takl about inmemeory computations ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:39 <cedk> Cristi_an: no they store the result in the database | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:40 <Cristi_an> well is that a bad thing ? what if i want a report and i want to see only a resume of the invoices that i had last year (customer,date,number,total_invoice) ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:40 <Cristi_an> then i have to do a select only on invoice and partenr table (join) to have taht | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:40 <cedk> Cristi_an: you can do it, with waht we had | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:41 <cedk> Cristi_an: use the models | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:41 <Cristi_an> but i have to do larger queries no ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:41 <cedk> Cristi_an: it will not cost so much | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:41 <Cristi_an> to involve the invoice_details as well | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:41 <Cristi_an> where each product is | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:42 <cedk> Cristi_an: it is just a join with a clause that has index | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:43 <cedk> Cristi_an: and diplied the customer name will cost much that the total_amout | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:43 <cedk> s/diplied/displaied/ | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:44 <Cristi_an> well pardon me but if i have like 10000 customers ...like 100000 invoices and like 1000000 invoice dettails... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:44 <Cristi_an> does it worth to do such a query...? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:44 <bechamel> Cristi_an: for an annual report speed is not a big deal, but updating data for it each time you create an invoice is bad (frequent operation must be quick, not frequent operation can be slow) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:44 <Cristi_an> agreee.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:44 <Cristi_an> but there are ...like OLAP | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:45 <Cristi_an> and additinal data strcutures may be created for reporting | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:45 <Cristi_an> Datawarehouse etc.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:45 <cedk> Cristi_an: accounting stuff must be hardened, and OLAP stuff are not very accurate | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:45 <Cristi_an> buut having some computed fileds in the table is that going to affect so much inserts and upfdates | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:46 <cedk> Cristi_an: I think so | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:46 <bechamel> datawarehouse doesnt need "live" data, if its sync every night its ok | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:46 <nicoe> Cristi_an, for OLAP you can you delegate the computation of such field to the ETL layer | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:46 <Cristi_an> we are talking about the current tables that are used every day... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:46 <Cristi_an> "movements" | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:47 <Cristi_an> this tables have to be kept in resonable size for optimum speed agree ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:47 <bechamel> Cristi_an: why, there are indexes for that | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:47 <bechamel> afk | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:48 <Cristi_an> i do not understat having a talbr with milions of rows inside is not a problem but having a table with some extrac columns is a problem | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:49 <rvayi> Cristi_an: (OpenERP, made the cache stuff for balance and other financial reports and also stock reports I think? They also use a MPTT for hierarchical structures, which is a bit the same kind of optim, I don't know where Tryton stands here) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:49 <cedk> Cristi_an: because if you want cache on a field, it is because you find that computed it will cost too much, so if you store the value and you re-compute it each time there is a change, you will compute this fields more than necessary | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:50 <cedk> rvayi: MPTT is in Tryton before OpenERP | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:50 <cedk> rvayi: and I don't think as I said previously that caching financial stuff is a good thing | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:51 <rvayi> cedk: But I think that recomputation mainty occurs in an interractive time: like you alter a slae workflow: it will recompute, you won't even notice it, while if the partner balance has no cache it will just be really slow every time you wan to see it | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:52 <cedk> rvayi: I think you create move line more often that you read the balance | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:53 <cedk> rvayi: by the way, we had a computed balance for each fiscalyear when this one is closed | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:53 <cedk> rvayi: so we store computed data when they will no more change | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:54 <Cristi_an> i am tryng to follow you guys....BUT i know a general rule cache static data (that that do not have too much movements) (may be parteners ,countries etc) not fin data .... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:54 <cedk> Cristi_an: fin = ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:54 <Cristi_an> finacial | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:55 <rvayi> cedk: ok. But my point is that while caching you might very well recompute too much, but if you don that per while interacting perrecord, the user won't notice any lag because recomputing one field is negligible in front of the network latency | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:55 <cedk> rvayi: not for Tryton :-) | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:55 <rvayi> err, mean: if you recompute while manipulating one record, that's fast | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:56 <cedk> rvayi: but if you think that computing the fields is not a problem for interactive, so why do you want to compute it when you read it | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:56 <cedk> rvayi: false | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:56 <cedk> rvayi: they don't do delta change, they compute every thing | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:57 <cedk> rvayi: and if they do delta change, it is more bad that I thought | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:57 <cedk> rvayi: I check it and the re-compute the field | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:58 <cedk> so compute the balance each time a move is created vs compute the balance when it is readed | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:58 <rvayi> cedk: beacause recomputing one filed might be fine and not even noticeable, but mass recomputing field in a report when their is no cache might not be acceptable | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:59 <rvayi> cedk: no | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:59 <cedk> by the way I check and OpenERP don't store the balance of accounts | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:59 <cedk> rvayi: no FALSE | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:59 <Cristi_an> nice talking to you.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 12:59 <Cristi_an> cu you soon ... | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:00 <cedk> rvayi: if it is so, it is because it is bad programming | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:00 <rvayi> cedk: the balance is not cached, but it's computed mostly from the DB. But an invoice total amount (will be used in the balance) is cached in the DB so the balance computation can use it. Now if you alter an invoice line, you do recompute the invoice total which is fine I think | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:01 <cedk> rvayi: no FALSE, amount of the invoice is not used in the balance of account | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:01 <rvayi> well, they do that kind of stuff with sale order at least and I guess what use it for instance is to know how much a customer might have ordered vs how much he has paid | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:02 <rvayi> but that's the same idea how cache works | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:02 <cedk> rvayi: you can not work on SALES for that, you work on account moves | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:04 <rvayi> cedk: well, I'm not to much interested in where they use it exactly (no interrest inaccounting I should say) but I know why they use it and I think they are right | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:04 <cedk> rvayi: no problem if you don't see tha bottleneck of this design | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:05 <rvayi> cedk: well, I cam up with somthing similar for personnal project, so I think I rather why they do it like that, sorry | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:07 <cedk> rvayi: just one thing, if you think it is speeding the software, did you test our demo server ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:09 -!- Cristi_an(n=Cristi@89.120.211.206) has joined #tryton | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:09 <rvayi> cedk: not yet, but this is definitely on in my todo list | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:10 <rvayi> cedk: speaking about speed, you might be interested in this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/307718 | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:11 <rvayi> I think they got it wrong here | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:13 <cedk> rvayi: we do the same but it is not slow at all as we fetch only visible records | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:14 <cedk> it is just a prefetch to have better fluidity in the UI | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:15 <cedk> but I know that it can be very slow on OpenERP | ||
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| 2008-12-16 13:57 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1366:f1de6c5b54d1 trytond/trytond/tools/convert.py: Fix creation of translation in xml import | ||
| 2008-12-16 13:57 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1367:7a9374193f2a trytond/trytond/tools/convert.py: Improve xml import by using a BrowseRecordList for existing records | ||
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| 2008-12-16 16:37 <CIA-53> tryton: matb roundup * #670/Error on update of some not very recent databases: [chatting] failing SQL for these databases: INSERT INTO "ir_action_act_window_view" (id,"act_window","sequence","view", create_uid, create_date) V ... | ||
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| 2008-12-16 18:06 <CIA-53> tryton: matb roundup * #671/Cannot insert new products in purchases or sales: [chatting] [Tue Dec 16 17:59:03 2008] ERROR:web-service:Exception in call: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/tryton/trytond/tr ... | ||
| 2008-12-16 18:09 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1122:11111aac4e92 tryton/tryton/common/common.py: Remove print statement | ||
| 2008-12-16 19:15 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1368:7d559c95817e trytond/trytond/tools/misc.py: Fix find_in_path to return the name if not found in path | ||
| 2008-12-16 19:15 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1123:009fbf625271 tryton/tryton/common/common.py: Use find_in_path for file_open and mailto | ||
| 2008-12-16 19:15 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1124:d44a2fd221cf tryton/tryton/config.py: Fix find_path for win32 and mac | ||
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| 2008-12-16 19:29 <CIA-53> tryton: matb roundup * #680/Translated items not being any more displayed translated: [new] new database on changeset: 1379:42a0f4bf12b3 user: Cédric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> date: Mon Dec 15 19:10:39 2008 +0100 summar ... | ||
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| 2008-12-16 20:00 <udono> X0d_of_N0d: http://mercurial.intuxication.org/hg/ldap | ||
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| 2008-12-16 20:38 <CIA-53> tryton: ced roundup * #678/validation error in xml of purchase module: [resolved] Update the purchase module. | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:39 <CIA-53> tryton: ced roundup * #679/KeyError: 'salable': [testing] I think it is linked to the issue678 | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:40 <CIA-53> tryton: ced roundup * #677/error in tax code creation from tax code templates: [need-eg] Can you provide more informations? | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:41 <Cristi_an> the python interpreter for windows is as good as in linux ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:43 <vengfulsquirrel> Do you mean performance wise ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:45 <Cristi_an> yes | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:46 <bechamel> Cristi_an: I think it is, but maybe gtk is a bit slower, but it wasn't flagrant on my laptop | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:46 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 1369:4473fbe5217e trytond/trytond/ir/action.py: Add migration from 1.0 remove multi on ir.action.act_window.view for issue670 | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:46 <Cristi_an> i guess most of the cliets you have have windows | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:46 <CIA-53> tryton: ced roundup * #670/Error on update of some not very recent databases: [resolved] Fix with changeset 4473fbe5217e | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:51 <bechamel> Cristi_an: as i told you before, the last exe is faster, did you try it ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:51 <Cristi_an> no | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:51 <Cristi_an> i download now... | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:51 <Cristi_an> i am sure it is faster... | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:54 <cedk> Cristi_an: globaly it is the same sources so it must not be very different | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:55 <Cristi_an> thx | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:55 <cedk> Cristi_an: The only things I know, is that on windows the previous TinyERP client was very slow because it needs to open many times the same big file with glade xml | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:55 <bechamel> cedk: it depends which version Cristi_an was using before | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:55 <cedk> Cristi_an: and on linux it was the same but there was no visible performence lost | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:56 <cedk> Cristi_an: but it is not python the issue I guess, it is more windows OS | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:56 <cedk> bechamel: I talk about Python only | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:57 <cedk> for sure the version 1.0.1 is faster then the 1.0.0 | ||
| 2008-12-16 20:59 <Cristi_an> i run it right now | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:00 <cedk> Cristi_an: and ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:01 <Cristi_an> give me 3 min :) | ||
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| 2008-12-16 21:05 <Cristi_an> well | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:05 <Cristi_an> wind app looks gr8 | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:05 <Cristi_an> and behaves nice. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:05 <Cristi_an> a thing i noticed | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:05 <Cristi_an> since i am maniac :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:06 <Cristi_an> when firt time the party or other module is created (new party) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:06 <Cristi_an> it takes some time to create that | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:06 <Cristi_an> maybe is because the demo server is ....in belgium :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:06 <Cristi_an> not local | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:06 <Cristi_an> and the ui is created by reding from DB (my guess) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:07 <cedk> Cristi_an: it is normally only the first time you open a view because after there is some cache | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:08 <cedk> Cristi_an: and also if there was no body that connect to the server since a long time, the cache can have been clean | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:08 <Cristi_an> got it !!!! | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:09 <Cristi_an> guys with your help in 3 months... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:09 <Cristi_an> i'll code romanian modules...:) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:11 <Cristi_an> but plz remain as comunicative as you are now :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:12 <cedk> Cristi_an: we will do our best | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:13 <CIA-53> tryton: C?dric Krier <ced@b2ck.com> default * 336:bffa4fda0026 account/journal.py: Fix guidelines | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:13 <vengfulsquirrel> I'm going to make a wiki page for the MRP module, and begin to list out features and functionality in there and we can began to form a consensus on what's important. Does that sound good ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:14 <Cristi_an> thx... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:14 <cedk> vengfulsquirrel: yes | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:15 <vengfulsquirrel> I'm still reading and whatnot but I have some basic questions. Is it improper for a module to change the database schema of other module's table layouts? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:18 <cedk> vengfulsquirrel: what do you mean by changing the schema ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:20 <cedk> I just check the module document_webdav_old of Tiny, and in fact they used an old version of pywebdav, so it is logical that they had performance issue | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:21 <cedk> vengfulsquirrel: if it is just adding new columns, there is no issue | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:21 <cedk> vengfulsquirrel: but if it is make one field required, this can make an issue | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:22 <cedk> vengfulsquirrel: in many modules, we extend other models that is the main purpose of modularity | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:23 <vengfulsquirrel> Hmm well for example this book talks of separating "parts" from "products". | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:26 <vengfulsquirrel> The current system only covers products. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:28 <vengfulsquirrel> If they were different the stock module would have to track quantities of parts INSTEAD of products, whereas products would be defined consisting of parts using a BOM. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:28 <vengfulsquirrel> I think I'm way ahead of myself here though, but knowing that adding a column is OK is helpful. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:29 <vengfulsquirrel> Do modules need to support being un-installed at all? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:46 <X0d_of_N0d> udono: hey | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:47 <X0d_of_N0d> vengfulsquirrel: you're working on mrp in Tryton?? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:47 <udono> X0d_of_N0d: hello | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:48 -!- cristi_an(n=cristi@89.120.211.206) has joined #tryton | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:48 <udono> X0d_of_N0d: http://mercurial.intuxication.org/hg/ldap | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:49 <vengfulsquirrel> X0d_of_N0d: Well I'm just trying to help with the planning right now, and maybe when I get up to speed on everything else I'll actually be "working" on something. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:50 <X0d_of_N0d> udono: The module looks good, I've got to do a bunch of other stuff before I get a chance to really check it out but at first glance it looks nice | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:50 <udono> X0d_of_N0d: the ldap part is on you... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:50 <udono> ;-) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:50 <X0d_of_N0d> udono: cool, np | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:51 <X0d_of_N0d> vengfulsquirrel: mrp is actually the only thing in the way of our company using tryton instead of tinyerp... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:51 <udono> X0d_of_N0d: do you know this: http://groups.google.com/group/tryton/browse_thread/thread/160ee5523a4a2a87?hl=de | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:52 <cristi_an> http://paste.ubuntu.com/86519/ | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:53 <cristi_an> what is __doc__ means ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:54 <vengfulsquirrel> cristi_an: Its part of python's built-in functionality that gets the doc string of the class. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:54 <X0d_of_N0d> ACTION looks at the google groups thread | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:54 <cristi_an> k. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:54 <cristi_an> when i create a class like that one. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:55 <X0d_of_N0d> vengfulsquirrel: is there any plan on adding finite capacity scheduling? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:55 <cristi_an> the db table is create by the framework ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:55 <X0d_of_N0d> vengfulsquirrel: into the mrp module | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:55 <cristi_an> or do i have to create that ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:56 <X0d_of_N0d> udono: that's really interesting.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:56 <vengfulsquirrel> X0d_of_N0d: The plan hasn't started yet. I'm going to make a wiki page with a feature list and we'll add stuff to it and then decide on what's most critical to start. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:56 <udono> cristi_an: google for python docstring | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:56 <cristi_an> ok...that is clear.. | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:56 <cristi_an> ii found that in dive into pyton... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:56 <udono> cristi_an: class table is done by ORM | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:56 <cristi_an> gr8 | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:57 <cristi_an> i think is better for me to start doing a module | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:57 <cristi_an> first | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:57 <cristi_an> rathere then read a book ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:57 <cristi_an> in order to be familiar with python... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:57 <cristi_an> since you learn a language using it...not from books | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:58 <cristi_an> what do you think... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:58 <cristi_an> ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:58 <udono> cristi_an: that's the best way! | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:58 <cristi_an> :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:58 <udono> cristi_an: even better is you learn on university... | ||
| 2008-12-16 21:59 <cristi_an> well there i had a lot of c++,java,lisp,prolog,assmbler :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:00 <cristi_an> python is new for me. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:00 <cristi_an> but i start to like it... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:00 <cristi_an> aaa i forgot basic and pascal :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:01 <X0d_of_N0d> vengfulsquirrel: cool | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:01 <cristi_an> that was highschool :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:01 <X0d_of_N0d> udono: I've got to take care of a few things here, I'll talk to you later today or tomorrow | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:02 <udono> X0d_of_N0d: best is via email or just hg push, cos Iam away soon. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:03 <X0d_of_N0d> udono: will do | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:07 <cristi_an> who is giving me 3 minutes ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:08 <cristi_an> (volunteer ?) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:08 <cristi_an> http://paste.ubuntu.com/86531/ | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:10 <cristi_an> np i ask tommorow then .... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:11 <udono> cristi_an: just ask and don't ask if you can ask | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:11 <cristi_an> ok...i am courious... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:11 <cristi_an> in that paste i did... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:12 <cristi_an> about import | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:12 <cristi_an> i see there two imports | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:12 <cristi_an> import logging | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:12 <cristi_an> and import then later vatnumber | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:12 <cristi_an> that is executed like static in java ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <cristi_an> before the constructor ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <udono> cristi_an: yes | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <cristi_an> there is a try except ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <cristi_an> like a try catch in java | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <udono> cristi_an: yes | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <cristi_an> that vatnumber | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <cristi_an> is like a packege (in java ) module in python ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:13 <udono> cristi_an: I don't know java, but it sounds good... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:14 <cristi_an> so that is imported.... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:14 <udono> cristi_an: yes | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:14 <cristi_an> but how do you know that it throws that exception... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:14 <udono> cristi_an: sudo easy_install vatnumber | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:14 <cristi_an> in java for dummies ...the IDE show to you that | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:14 <cristi_an> if is not runtimeexceptions | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:15 <udono> cristi_an: you see a warning in log. The exeception is catched | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:15 <bechamel> cristi_an: another suggestion: don't use so much lines to talk try to put all the question in one line | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:15 <cristi_an> sorry for this... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:16 <udono> cristi_an: s/HAS_VATNUMBER and see where it changes | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:16 <cristi_an> i know the logic there,but how do you know that is possible to get exceptions | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:17 <cristi_an> that import error is throws by the vatnumber class or so | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:18 <vengfulsquirrel> All python has is run time exceptions, so if its not documented you have to look at the code that will throw the exception to know the exception will be thrown. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:18 <bechamel> import are made at runtime, and the exception is thrown by the interpreter if it fails to find find the module | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:18 <cristi_an> hmmm | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:19 <cristi_an> all exception are runtime ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:19 <udono> cristi_an: its just good implementation: you use other modules if they are there. If they are not mandatory for the functioning of your module, you catch the exeption and disable the depending parts: line 168 | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:20 <cristi_an> udono: i got it the logic behind this | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:21 <cristi_an> but since i came from an environment where exceptions are of 2 types :runtime and catched | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:22 <cristi_an> i wanted to know how do i know if a method ,import anything throws an exception. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:22 <cristi_an> a half answer i got from vengfulsquirrel , only from documents | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:23 <vengfulsquirrel> Yeah there is no pre-declared exceptions just like there are no pre-declared types. If I call function foo() it could raise ANY exception and I wouldn't know until I read the documentation and furthermore maybe even the source to find out it threw that. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:23 <cristi_an> ooops. that is not very nice and some surprises may arrise :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:24 <cristi_an> vengfulsquirrel: you worked with java before ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:24 <udono> cristi_an: there is no problem | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:24 <cristi_an> but at least there are like ierachies of exceptions ? in order to catch one for many of them ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:25 <vengfulsquirrel> cristi_an: Python has exception inheritance as well. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:25 <cristi_an> that is good. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:25 <udono> cristi_an: you can have exception classes | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:25 <vengfulsquirrel> cristi_an: Have you tried going through the python tutorial it might speed things up? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:26 <cristi_an> i will do that then. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:26 <cristi_an> started but i assumed is better to dive into the code :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:27 <cristi_an> i know,if you want to learn to swing ,you have to try deep waters :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:27 <vengfulsquirrel> Yeah well you have to keep going back to the docs and tutorial when you hit problems though otherwise its going to be some slow swimming. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:27 <cristi_an> but as you said...maybe is a good ideea to start with not so deep waters | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:28 <udono> cristi_an: python tutorial is a must have, I think | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:28 <cristi_an> sure np. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:28 <vengfulsquirrel> I've read through it at least once. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:28 <vengfulsquirrel> Has anyone else read parts of this Data Model Resource book by Silverston ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:28 <cristi_an> that one from pyton org ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:29 <vengfulsquirrel> http://docs.python.org/tutorial/ | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:30 <cristi_an> cu in few days...then, you will not get rid of me that easy :) | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:30 <vengfulsquirrel> ha sounds good, good luck | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:31 <cristi_an> thx | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:31 <vengfulsquirrel> What is the average company size that was using openerp ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:32 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: yes, me | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:32 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: Who knows? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:34 <vengfulsquirrel> udono: Have you ever converted one of these logical schemas to an implementation? They seem ridiculously hand-wavy and verbose at times. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:53 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: only partially. Iam working on party with this models. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:53 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: some concepts are very generical... | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:54 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: and most of the models needs a long time to understand afaik. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:54 <vengfulsquirrel> Yeah I'll give to them that MRP in general seems very complicated but the schema's are just so far from an actual implementation its kind of annoying. | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:55 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: do you have better schamas? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:55 <udono> s/schamas/schemas | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:55 <vengfulsquirrel> Ha touché | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:56 <udono> ? | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:57 <vengfulsquirrel> No I don't | ||
| 2008-12-16 22:58 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: dou you have a good actual implementation? | ||
| 2008-12-16 23:00 <vengfulsquirrel> No I don't have a good implementation. | ||
| 2008-12-16 23:04 <udono> vengfulsquirrel: my experience with the data model resource book is, that its good for partial concepts. Its even good for naming, because Iam not a native enklish speaker. I just isolated the useful structures into small modules. Some parts are not necessary for now, so I just let them aside. Unfortunately I cannot show you a working example. Because I hang in inheriting (coding) problems with the modules. |
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