IRC logs of #tryton for Monday, 2011-01-10 #tryton log beginning Mon Jan 10 00:00:02 CET 2011
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2011-01-10 11:29 <cedk> Timitos: don't forget to assign you issue on which you work
2011-01-10 11:30 <Timitos> cedk: ok. thx
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2011-01-10 11:58 <cedk> sharoon: hi, could you check if it is correct
2011-01-10 12:00 <sharoon> cedk: doing that now :)
2011-01-10 12:01 <cedk> sharoon: I found the information on wikipedia
2011-01-10 12:24 <sharoon> cedk: looks good to me...
2011-01-10 12:24 <sharoon> cedk: it works
2011-01-10 12:28 <cedk> sharoon: thx
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2011-01-10 12:50 <udono> roundup down?
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2011-01-10 13:06 <cedk> udono: rebooted
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2011-01-10 13:32 <udono> cedk: thanks!
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2011-01-10 13:44 <slef> Hi all. Does anyone know if the webdav server only logs exceptions? I'm struggling to understand how to get debugging logs for webdav with tryton 1.8.
2011-01-10 13:54 <cedk> sharoon: yes only with verbose option
2011-01-10 13:55 <sharoon> slef: i believe that cedk message was for you
2011-01-10 13:56 <slef> cedk: thanks. It only logs exceptions with verbose option, or I need to give it the verbose option (in trytond.conf?) to get more logs?
2011-01-10 13:56 <cedk> oops yes autocomplet issue :-)
2011-01-10 13:56 <cedk> slef: only logs exception with verbose option
2011-01-10 13:58 <slef> cedk: is there a way to get more logs? A Kontact user says it is unable to save new or edited events over caldav, so I'd like to see any server-side errors.
2011-01-10 13:58 <cedk> slef: no except putting print statement
2011-01-10 13:59 <slef> cedk: ok, thanks. I'll put verbose = True in trytond.conf and see if that gets enough.
2011-01-10 14:00 <slef> Apparently Sunbird works, so I guess it's not our config. It's something with Kontact.
2011-01-10 14:00 <slef> I'll comment here if I narrow it down to a bug or an interaction.
2011-01-10 14:02 <cedk> slef: you should dump the http connection
2011-01-10 14:03 <slef> cedk: easiest way to do that? socat? I think I can't fire up a packet sniffer on that server.
2011-01-10 14:03 <cedk> slef: I use wireshark
2011-01-10 14:05 <slef> cedk: which is a sniffer... if all else fails, I'll see if I can get the user to run that on their workstation.
2011-01-10 14:07 <cedk> slef: you can run it on the server
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2011-01-10 15:04 <slef> cedk: I'm not sure I have permission. Safer to run on client.
2011-01-10 15:08 <cedk> slef: it requires root access
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2011-01-10 17:49 <udono> cedk: what do you think about ?
2011-01-10 17:52 <cedk> udono: don't know yet
2011-01-10 17:52 <udono> cedk: ok
2011-01-10 17:53 <cedk> udono: the form display what will be seen in the report
2011-01-10 17:53 <udono> cedk: yes, Understand, But the user chooses a different name. This is irritating.
2011-01-10 17:55 <udono> cedk: ... and we actually do not know if a custom report uses or tax.description.
2011-01-10 18:00 <cedk> udono: it must use tax.description
2011-01-10 18:01 <cedk> udono: it is the public name of the tax
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2011-01-10 18:04 <Timitos> cedk: but why should the public name be used on the view? as the user selects the tax by the internal name i recommend to use the internal name on the view, too.
2011-01-10 18:05 <Timitos> cedk: i agree with udono that the current behavior is irritating for the user
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2011-01-10 18:27 <cedk> Timitos: yes but description could be changed by the user as it is what will be seen in the report
2011-01-10 18:31 <Timitos> cedk: ok. this might be an argument. have not seen this like that until now
2011-01-10 18:32 <Timitos> for me this was data that should not be changed by a user as he might do not have the knowledge to this in a correct way
2011-01-10 18:33 <cedk> Timitos: yes but it is for accountant
2011-01-10 18:41 <Timitos> cedk: ok. as i had a different view on the current behavior it is ok for me to keep it as it is. i can now explain it in another way.
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2011-01-10 19:13 <pheller> cedk: just curious -- do you think the tryton client will capable of multiple windows to different servers at some point? (rather than a new process)
2011-01-10 19:15 <paepke> ACTION likes to see different windows to different databases on the same server.
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2011-01-10 19:15 <cedk> pheller: never for different server
2011-01-10 19:15 <cedk> paepke: and I don't think it is good for different databases
2011-01-10 19:16 <paepke> cedk. why it isn't good?
2011-01-10 19:17 <cedk> paepke: this will be confusing
2011-01-10 19:20 <cedk> paepke: you just have to open a new client
2011-01-10 19:20 <cedk> pheller: idem for multi-server
2011-01-10 19:21 <pheller> cedk: how is opening a new client any less confusing?
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2011-01-10 19:27 <cedk> pheller: you got connection params in the bottom
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2011-01-10 19:28 <pheller> cedk: this could be the same for multiple windows in the same process....
2011-01-10 19:29 <paepke> cedk, its not that easy to open two different tryton processes on osx for example.
2011-01-10 19:30 <cedk> pheller: what will be the advantage
2011-01-10 19:30 <cedk> paepke: it is the osx fault
2011-01-10 19:31 <paepke> cedk, depends on the eye of the beholder: its the osx advantage.
2011-01-10 19:31 <udono> ACTION would like to have a command line option, which defines a colored statusbar/titlebar/... for the client
2011-01-10 19:32 <paepke> full ack to udono. working with two databases and have different colors for them eases the use of multiple tryton windows. already did that on other erp software and the users were very very happy.
2011-01-10 19:33 <paepke> udono, maybe you can archieve that with the gtk-style setting
2011-01-10 19:33 <udono> paepke: ?
2011-01-10 19:34 <udono> paepke: what is gtk-style setting?
2011-01-10 19:34 <pheller> cedk: perhaps simpler to debug multi-server connections. If each server/database has it's own thread within the same process. (well, ok, simpler for people who use an IDE :-)
2011-01-10 19:34 <paepke> udono, you can set the gtk-style (isn't that the right word?) for the client. like "clearlooks"
2011-01-10 19:35 <pheller> cedk: only one process will run the IPCServer...
2011-01-10 19:35 <pheller> cedk: and sure, it makes it easier to integrate on the Mac.
2011-01-10 19:35 <cedk> paepke: it is an advantage to not be able to run twice the same program ? Are you kidding
2011-01-10 19:37 <pheller> cedk: you can always run a program more than once, it's just that the Mac OS Launch services doesn't make this convenient.
2011-01-10 19:37 <cedk> pheller: thread was not create for this
2011-01-10 19:38 <cedk> pheller: this is not KISS but KICB (Keep It Complex and Bloated :-)
2011-01-10 19:38 <paepke> you can run two times the same program if you want to. but the idea behind is to ease the use of the whole interface.
2011-01-10 19:38 <cedk> paepke, udono: I don't think that gtk-style can manage different theme per process
2011-01-10 19:39 <udono> paepke: this would be too much invention for me. Just a --color=red or --color=#ff0000 would be enough for me.
2011-01-10 19:39 <paepke> udono, agree with --color=xxx
2011-01-10 19:40 <cedk> udono: it could be in the new/futur connection manager
2011-01-10 19:41 <udono> cedk: yes
2011-01-10 19:41 <paepke> cedk, the idea on osx is to have one program launch different windows.
2011-01-10 19:42 <cedk> paepke: I know but this doesn't make application KISS
2011-01-10 19:43 <cedk> someone should say to Steve that now OS are multi-process
2011-01-10 19:43 <paepke> cedk, its kiss for the user. even every modern browser works like this.
2011-01-10 19:44 <cedk> paepke: this is not KISS even for user. This is simply hide stuff.
2011-01-10 19:44 <paepke> cedk, you know why steve is everytime wearing this turtleneck sweaters? everything else has too many buttons.
2011-01-10 19:48 <cedk> pheller: perhaps we should create a launcher for OSX?
2011-01-10 19:48 <paepke> cedk, why shouldn't it be multi-process? I'm not familiar with that osx programming. maybe its just a matter of registration to the same menu to have multiple windows/processes apper as the same application.
2011-01-10 19:48 <paepke> cedk, or something like that. had kind of same idea
2011-01-10 19:48 <cedk> paepke: I don't know any GUI lib that allow multi-process
2011-01-10 19:49 <paepke> cedk, isn't chromium for example running every tab as extra process? i'm not sure...
2011-01-10 19:52 <cedk> paepke: yes but the rendering is done by the main thread
2011-01-10 19:53 <cedk> paepke: by rendering I mean put the "image" in the tab
2011-01-10 19:54 <cedk> paepke: but perhaps they use some kind of encapsulation of display
2011-01-10 19:54 <cedk> any way, this is not the behavior we want for Tryton
2011-01-10 19:54 <cedk> because the multi-process of chromium is for security, to prevent contamination of other tabs
2011-01-10 19:55 <cedk> in Tryton, we want to have communication between tabs, windows etc.
2011-01-10 19:56 <paepke> cedk, i don't think of seperating the tabs. more like seperating different windows with different database connection.
2011-01-10 19:57 <paepke> cedk, and the idea of having a launcher process for tryton on osx which let two seperate tryton processes look like any other osx application would work ok.
2011-01-10 19:58 <paepke> pheller made a big step forward with his osx enhancements.
2011-01-10 19:59 <pheller> paepke: I will fully try to make the URL launcher work the same under OS X as others, I'm only thinking of what to do if it turns out to be very difficult.
2011-01-10 19:59 <cedk> paepke: yes, we need to provide a better launcher than the OSX one
2011-01-10 20:02 <paepke> cedk, than we are on the same level. i don't want to force something like a complex process model inside the tryton client. i'm looking from the users side of view.
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2011-01-10 20:19 <cristi_an> long time no see guys...
2011-01-10 20:20 <udono> cristi_an: indeed
2011-01-10 20:20 <cristi_an> tryton became bigger
2011-01-10 20:20 <cristi_an> udono: how is going with tryton ?
2011-01-10 20:21 <cristi_an> still do not belive in a web interface ?
2011-01-10 20:22 <udono> cristi_an: no more work then a prototype called sao, based on gwt
2011-01-10 20:23 <udono> cristi_an: but a great client lib, which helps to make custom clients
2011-01-10 20:23 <udono> called proteus
2011-01-10 20:23 <cristi_an> proteus ? is there a demo to see ....
2011-01-10 20:23 <cristi_an> based on the tryton client ...i supose
2011-01-10 20:24 <udono> cristi_an: no, not based. You can see the api e.g. here:
2011-01-10 20:26 <udono> cristi_an: upon proteus it is very easy to communicate with tryton. Upon this api, you can create easily a webserver which propagate stuff to trytond.
2011-01-10 20:26 <cristi_an>
2011-01-10 20:27 <cristi_an> searching on net to read more about...sounds interesting
2011-01-10 20:28 <cristi_an> so this is a client API
2011-01-10 20:28 <cristi_an> no UI at all
2011-01-10 20:28 <udono> cristi_an: yes
2011-01-10 20:28 <cristi_an> anyone can use it to develop in any UI desires
2011-01-10 20:28 <cristi_an> is stateless i guess
2011-01-10 20:29 <cristi_an> this might be seen like an extraction from the Client that now is separated into an idependent API
2011-01-10 20:29 <cristi_an> the Tryton client use this ?
2011-01-10 20:30 <udono> cristi_an: no, not for now.
2011-01-10 20:30 <udono> cristi_an: maybe it will be used in the gtk client, but Iam unsure about this.
2011-01-10 20:31 <cristi_an> it is a good ideea to have such more oportunities for the client side
2011-01-10 20:31 <cristi_an> but is this something that is fully done or is experimental ?
2011-01-10 20:32 <pheller> cristi_an: in between, I think. in fact, doctests are mostly written in a proteus compatible manner
2011-01-10 20:33 <udono> cristi_an: it is complete, but afaik report generation is missing. We use it daily for new projects with trytond > 1.6
2011-01-10 20:34 <pheller> cristi_an: I've started using it to interate with Asterisk for telephony projects....
2011-01-10 20:34 <cristi_an> so there are other projects done based on tryton then ERP ?
2011-01-10 20:34 <cristi_an> it became like a Application platform ?
2011-01-10 20:34 <paepke> ACTION has begun writing a specialized ncurses client on top of it. it feels kinda stable.
2011-01-10 20:34 <pheller> paepke: something like the openerp ncurses client?
2011-01-10 20:35 <cristi_an> this looks like active record from rails but this is remote stuff
2011-01-10 20:35 <udono> cristi_an: Just step into our App-Store ;-)
2011-01-10 20:35 <paepke> pheller, no. its a specialized one. nothing generic.
2011-01-10 20:35 <cristi_an> you have App store ? really ?
2011-01-10 20:35 <cristi_an> or is a joke
2011-01-10 20:35 <udono> cristi_an: just kidding
2011-01-10 20:35 <cristi_an> did not been here for a while :))
2011-01-10 20:35 <paepke> udono, but kinda intresting :-)
2011-01-10 20:35 <cristi_an> was not
2011-01-10 20:35 <cristi_an> oki...
2011-01-10 20:36 <cristi_an> proteus...? there is a wiki for it ?
2011-01-10 20:39 <cristi_an> guys but this proteus client code
2011-01-10 20:39 <cristi_an> might be executed on a remote client
2011-01-10 20:39 <cristi_an> or it has to be on the same machine?
2011-01-10 20:39 <cristi_an> local or remote calls ?
2011-01-10 20:40 <paepke> cristi_an, remote via xml-rpc and if you wish local via sockets
2011-01-10 20:40 <cristi_an> paepke: so it can be used also in a fat client also for a web client..
2011-01-10 20:40 <cristi_an> that is quite nice...
2011-01-10 20:41 <cristi_an> there are some docs related to Proteus ?
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2011-01-10 20:42 <paepke> cristi_an, i know only the in code docs.
2011-01-10 20:43 <paepke> getting hungry. bbl
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2011-01-10 20:44 <cristi_an> does tryton support multiple database
2011-01-10 20:44 <cristi_an> ?
2011-01-10 20:44 <cristi_an> know that cedk worked on this in 2008
2011-01-10 20:44 <cristi_an> if yes which ones ?
2011-01-10 20:45 <pheller> yes - sqlite and postgresql at least.
2011-01-10 20:45 <pheller> cristi_an: mysql too, I believe, though I haven't tried it.
2011-01-10 20:45 <cristi_an> mysql that would be super gr8
2011-01-10 20:46 <cristi_an> will try that soon
2011-01-10 20:46 <cristi_an> nice to see that there were so many impreovements
2011-01-10 20:46 <pheller> yes, mysql support is in the code.
2011-01-10 20:47 <pheller> and for the most recent 1.8 release, a Transaction manager was implemented -- so no longer a need to pass cursor, uid, and context to each server method.
2011-01-10 20:48 <pheller> so all the method signatures are much cleaner and more understandable now.
2011-01-10 20:50 <cristi_an> cool
2011-01-10 20:50 <cristi_an> like in java + spring
2011-01-10 20:50 <cristi_an> :)
2011-01-10 20:51 <cristi_an> or jee
2011-01-10 20:55 <pheller> cristi_an: yes, things are moving along nicely here. would be nice to have more developers on board :-)
2011-01-10 20:57 <cristi_an> pheller: i had this idea of doing somehting on top of tryton 2 years ago...started slowly but job took me from romania into belgium ...then family ,kid time left for that issue was 0
2011-01-10 20:57 <cristi_an> nowdays things are much more calmer :)
2011-01-10 20:58 <pheller> cristi_an: so are you finding more time for tryton now, then? if so, that is great!
2011-01-10 20:58 <cristi_an> i plan to do that...but time will i read the docs try to see what is new
2011-01-10 20:58 <cristi_an> prepare my ubuntu
2011-01-10 20:59 <cristi_an> for the development and series of tries
2011-01-10 20:59 <pheller> cristi_an: cool. you'll also like ced's new "hgnested" module. One command will checkout entire trytond and nested module repositories.
2011-01-10 20:59 <cristi_an> i want with this ocassion to actually code in python since all day i do java a change and diverstity will not hurt
2011-01-10 21:00 <cristi_an> he had that was like a command that retreived all in one....mybe today is different
2011-01-10 21:00 <cristi_an> mercurial it was used if i rem correctly
2011-01-10 21:01 <pheller> cristi_an: ah yes, I think I read about this. yes, still mercurial... it's just that the nested repository is done with a production mercurial extension now
2011-01-10 21:01 <plantian> Right the forest extension, I think this is simpler and allows for multiple pull and update.
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2011-01-10 21:02 <udono> plantian: hi
2011-01-10 21:02 <plantian> udono: hello hello
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2011-01-10 21:03 <udono> plantian: In the past you talked about performance issues with the stock locations.
2011-01-10 21:03 <udono> plantian: did you solve them?
2011-01-10 21:04 <plantian> udono: Well I don't use the stock module's inventory anymore and I wrote my own. I have had many different performance problems though I'm not sure which one. Its still an ongoing problem.
2011-01-10 21:04 <plantian> I have not migrated to 1.8 I'm still in the process of upgrading modules and adding new features.
2011-01-10 21:04 <plantian> Going to migrate in the next month some time.
2011-01-10 21:05 <udono> plantian: Do you use mptt?
2011-01-10 21:05 <plantian> udono: It is tryton in general though, not just locations. I have many products too. It gets faster all the time though.
2011-01-10 21:05 <plantian> *Tryton gets faster all the time.
2011-01-10 21:05 <plantian> udono: I don't know if my indexing is great. What is mptt?
2011-01-10 21:06 <udono> plantian: the parent-child with left and right....
2011-01-10 21:06 <cristi_an> so this snippets from here
2011-01-10 21:06 <plantian> Oh yeah, I use tree of locations.
2011-01-10 21:06 <cristi_an>
2011-01-10 21:06 <udono> like used in stock/ or account/
2011-01-10 21:06 <cristi_an> are not valid anymore ?
2011-01-10 21:06 <cristi_an> on 1.8
2011-01-10 21:07 <udono> cristi_an: just an example missing...
2011-01-10 21:07 <cristi_an> the one where the context is missing ?
2011-01-10 21:08 <plantian> udono: I have around 1000 locations arranged in a tree. Like warehouse->main storage->(20 sections)->(each section has between 1 and 15 rows)->(each row has 3 spots: top, middle, bottom).
2011-01-10 21:09 <udono> plantian: I see
2011-01-10 21:09 <cristi_an> plantian: super question : wanted to aske the perfromance in retriving objects from DB
2011-01-10 21:10 <udono> plantian: did you put the structure into trytond manually or with a script?
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2011-01-10 21:10 <udono> plantian: I guess with a script
2011-01-10 21:10 <plantian> udono: With script
2011-01-10 21:11 <plantian> udono: I think the locations though are too small to cause problem, products are the biggest problem.
2011-01-10 21:11 <plantian> There are around 20,000 I think and when I open them in the client it was pretty slow. And then it makes a lot of things that scan products slow.
2011-01-10 21:12 <udono> plantian: yes, we found another problem with the chart of accounts. There is mptt used, too and yangoon found out it the mptt tree is always rebuild after each create.
2011-01-10 21:13 <plantian> udono: ha oh god, I thought I saw an alternative on a blog somewhere to mptt but I didn't look to far into it
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2011-01-10 21:15 <udono> plantian: but our problems are different, you have long read/gui-rendering, we have it only on create. The gui is not the problem for now.
2011-01-10 21:15 <plantian> udono: My product import script took over 10 hours.
2011-01-10 21:16 <cristi_an> 10 H ?
2011-01-10 21:16 <udono> plantian: for how many products?
2011-01-10 21:16 <cristi_an> how many ?
2011-01-10 21:16 <udono> plantian: on which hardware?
2011-01-10 21:17 <plantian> udono: 23000, on 2.0 Ghz AMD single processor. It was a long time ago though.
2011-01-10 21:17 <plantian> maybe 2 years ago
2011-01-10 21:17 <cristi_an> that has to be seconds not hours
2011-01-10 21:18 <udono> plantian: and with the same procedure you create the stock locations?
2011-01-10 21:18 <cristi_an> performance issue ...i assume there was initiated a transaction for each insert or things like this (i talk in general not what tryton does)
2011-01-10 21:18 <udono> cristi_an: its postgres, not oracle :-)
2011-01-10 21:18 <cristi_an> maybe bulk inserts need to be done
2011-01-10 21:19 <cristi_an> udono: 22000 for a database like postgress is nothing
2011-01-10 21:19 <udono> plantian: and with the same procedure you create the stock locations?
2011-01-10 21:20 <cristi_an> udono: in mysql 22000 is les then 5 sec
2011-01-10 21:20 <cristi_an> on my old laptop
2011-01-10 21:20 <udono> cristi_an: Ok
2011-01-10 21:20 <plantian> udono: Yes, it was through tryton api. I think from the wiki, using trytond as a module.
2011-01-10 21:21 <plantian> Maybe it was horribly wrong, all it takes though is product to take over 1 second and things get slow fast.
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2011-01-10 21:23 <udono> plantian: ok, thanks for investigating.
2011-01-10 21:26 <cristi_an> udono: really 22000 products to import has to take more then LET's say 10 min in worst case ?
2011-01-10 21:27 <cristi_an> however you know if tryton can work with jython ?
2011-01-10 21:27 <cristi_an> i would like to try how it behaves on a JVM
2011-01-10 21:28 <udono> cristi_an: yes, we are talking about nested structures with a lot of parent-child lookups in a greater deepth.
2011-01-10 21:28 <cristi_an> but these are inserts not retrival no ?
2011-01-10 21:28 <cristi_an> udono:
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2011-01-10 21:29 <plantian> udono: On more though, maybe it was only 6 hours.
2011-01-10 21:29 <udono> cristi_an: at the very end, these are inserts, but you need to update a lot in parent-child relationships
2011-01-10 21:31 <plantian> cristi_an: One creation can be many inserts as well many checks. The ERP must maintain consistency at all times, it is much more complicated than reading in a sql dump.
2011-01-10 21:31 <cristi_an> udono: i do not know the model...but on migration there has not be any updates only inserts..
2011-01-10 21:32 <udono> cristi_an: ?
2011-01-10 21:32 <cristi_an> plantian: check are reads...agree and might slow things
2011-01-10 21:32 <cristi_an> udono: i start to get import things via tryton model or so....
2011-01-10 21:33 <udono> cristi_an: yes
2011-01-10 21:34 <cristi_an> and data is provided how from text files ?
2011-01-10 21:34 <cristi_an> or you read them with some conversion tool from another database
2011-01-10 21:34 <cristi_an> ?
2011-01-10 21:37 <plantian> cristi_an: I had another database with products. So I imported from mysql into trytond running over postgresql.
2011-01-10 21:38 <udono> cristi_an: plantian, Sorry, I need to go, now. Thanks a lot for your help. I think yangoon, timitos or me will report as soon as we have more details.
2011-01-10 21:38 <paepke> cristi_an, cedk mentioned he did some tests with other python compilers like pypy or jython. but i don't thinkt it would be an official platform.
2011-01-10 21:39 <plantian> udono: cool, ttyl
2011-01-10 21:39 <cristi_an> paepke: k .
2011-01-10 21:39 <cristi_an> thx
2011-01-10 21:39 <udono> see you
2011-01-10 21:39 <cristi_an> plantian: and you created every object in tryton model...from mysql
2011-01-10 21:40 <cristi_an> then saved....
2011-01-10 21:40 <cristi_an> into postgress
2011-01-10 21:40 <cristi_an> and it took 10 h
2011-01-10 21:43 <plantian> cristi_an: Oh right ,earlier I said I think it might have just been 6 hours.
2011-01-10 21:44 <cristi_an> plantian: there is some special thing to import from mysql
2011-01-10 21:44 <cristi_an> i am interested in such thing as well
2011-01-10 21:44 <plantian> cristi_an: nothing special, I just used sqlalchemy to get the data and plug it into the tryton api
2011-01-10 21:45 <cristi_an> so you did your own conversion...
2011-01-10 21:46 <cristi_an> thx for tips
2011-01-10 21:49 <plantian> cristi_an: Yes, it worked fine though once I got it setup. I really like tryton so far it just gets better with every release. There is much work to still be done though.
2011-01-10 21:50 <cristi_an> well i come from java andyou might heard of spring ,jee6 ....
2011-01-10 21:50 <cristi_an> there as well is work to do and imporve
2011-01-10 21:50 <cristi_an> like everywhere :)
2011-01-10 21:52 <plantian> cristi_an: Yeah, I haven't used Java since I was in school. Is the common complaint about a lot of boiler plate the biggest problem ? Or do you just not feel as productive in the language compared to Python?
2011-01-10 21:53 <cristi_an> Nowdays it is productive enough with all this tools ....there is Spring Roo ,Grails ...for rapid development...
2011-01-10 21:53 <cristi_an> but does not hurt to learn new stuff
2011-01-10 21:57 <cristi_an> i have this positive feeling about tryton :)
2011-01-10 21:57 <cristi_an> so that is why i am here ...
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