IRC logs of #tryton for Friday, 2011-03-25 #tryton log beginning Fri Mar 25 00:00:01 CET 2011
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2011-03-25 11:42 <cedk> yangoon: is it you who has wrote a script to generate translation file for country?
2011-03-25 11:46 <yangoon> cedk: yes
2011-03-25 11:47 <yangoon> isn't it anywhere in codereview or tracker?
2011-03-25 11:47 <cedk> yangoon: because there is this issue
2011-03-25 11:48 <cedk> and I'm wondering if we could use it to generate those new translations
2011-03-25 11:48 <yangoon> cedk: I don't know if subdivisions are in iso-codes
2011-03-25 11:49 <cedk> yangoon: they come from the module pycountry which uses the ISO
2011-03-25 11:50 <yangoon> cedk: yes, the base is iso-country from debian
2011-03-25 11:50 <yangoon> cedk:
2011-03-25 11:51 <yangoon> cedk:
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2011-03-25 11:53 <cedk> yangoon: ok I think we should put it in country module under scripts
2011-03-25 11:53 <cedk> yangoon: and update it to translate also the subdivision
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2011-03-25 12:06 <yangoon> cedk: phone
2011-03-25 12:06 <yangoon> yes, good idea, same for currency
2011-03-25 12:06 <yangoon> just now short in time, bbl
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2011-03-25 18:28 <zodman> hi!
2011-03-25 18:28 <zodman> someone knows if trytond depends of genshi ?
2011-03-25 18:29 <cedk> zodman: it depends because it depends of relatorio which dependsof genshi
2011-03-25 18:29 <zodman> ok ok
2011-03-25 18:29 <zodman> cedk: tnx i updating to last tryton on foresight linux :)
2011-03-25 18:29 <cedk> zodman: indeed we use genshi filter in
2011-03-25 18:30 <zodman> ok ok np!
2011-03-25 18:30 <cedk> zodman: dependencies are in the
2011-03-25 18:31 <zodman> ok cedk foresightlinux detect dependencies automatic. Ok i take a look the tnx!
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2011-03-25 18:55 <udono> nicoe: It seems that tryton-users.svg is missing on tip?
2011-03-25 18:56 <udono> btw,hi
2011-03-25 18:56 <nicoe> hello
2011-03-25 18:56 <nicoe> did you update to the last version ?
2011-03-25 18:56 <nicoe> Cedric made a patch renaming it a few days ago
2011-03-25 18:58 <nicoe> udono: it has been renamed to tryton-party
2011-03-25 18:59 <udono> nicoe: I thought I did it. Let me check...
2011-03-25 19:00 <udono> nicoe: ugs... forget to hg up ...
2011-03-25 19:00 <udono> nicoe: thanks!
2011-03-25 19:00 <nicoe> you're welcome
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2011-03-25 21:54 <sharoon> hi everybody, we are working on the e-commerce problem and we are hitting the "unknown unknowns" issue and our alternatives are the infamous EAV or Schemaless NoSQL databases
2011-03-25 21:56 <cedk> sharoon: what is "unknown unknowns" issue?
2011-03-25 21:56 <sharoon> i remember a discussion in the IRC between cedk paepke bechamel yangoon on using MongoDB / CouchDB as a backend for tryton
2011-03-25 21:57 <sharoon> cedk: consider the example of a company which sells books and furniture
2011-03-25 21:57 <sharoon> cedk: the attributes on product for books are going to be different from the attributes on furniture
2011-03-25 21:58 <sharoon> cedk: this bloats to several thousand attributes when you have many different kind of attributes
2011-03-25 21:58 <sharoon> s/attributes/products
2011-03-25 22:01 <sharoon> cedk: the possible ways to implement this are:
2011-03-25 22:01 <sharoon> 1. Keep expanding the table by _inherit (slows downt he table and limitation of 1600 columns)
2011-03-25 22:01 <sharoon> 2. Use _inherits - same issues as above and more cumbersome to manage views and will introduce lot of joins and nested _inherits is not supported
2011-03-25 22:01 <sharoon> 3. Use EAV (Entity attribute value) - Difficult to manage, SQL joins etc
2011-03-25 22:01 <sharoon> 4. Use two storages. The main data in product.product and all supplementary as schemaless object in a NoSQL database
2011-03-25 22:02 <cedk> sharoon: I don't trust in EAV model
2011-03-25 22:02 <sharoon> cedk: Glad that you dont.... i tried EAV and it sucks ;)
2011-03-25 22:02 <cedk> sharoon: and I would like to understand what are those attributes?
2011-03-25 22:02 <sharoon> cedk: we also have example of magento
2011-03-25 22:03 <sharoon> cedk: Eg. in case of book. ISBN, Editor, Edition, Author, Publisher
2011-03-25 22:03 <cedk> sharoon: did you read
2011-03-25 22:03 <sharoon> cedk: reading now
2011-03-25 22:04 <cedk> sharoon: for me your example must be solved by creating a new Model that inherit product
2011-03-25 22:05 <cedk> I really trust in schema :-)
2011-03-25 22:07 <sharoon> cedk: but imagine the same company sells cameras, the new attributes will be like BatteriesIncluded, DisplaySize, BatteryType, OpticalSensorResolution, OpticalZoom etc etc
2011-03-25 22:08 <sharoon> so as the types of product increases - so will these attributes
2011-03-25 22:08 <cedk> sharoon: and what is the problem?
2011-03-25 22:08 <sharoon> cedk: using _inherit - this will keep increasing the no of columns in the DB
2011-03-25 22:08 <sharoon> Table
2011-03-25 22:08 <cedk> sharoon: every product that shares the same attributes (properties) will be in their specific table
2011-03-25 22:09 <cedk> sharoon: managing tables is what DB is about
2011-03-25 22:09 <sharoon> cedk: that would be using _inherits ?
2011-03-25 22:10 <cedk> sharoon: yes
2011-03-25 22:10 <sharoon> cedk: that is possible when the problem is "known unknows" not "unknown unknowns"
2011-03-25 22:10 <cedk> sharoon: don't understand those quotes
2011-03-25 22:11 <sharoon> cedk: if you know before hand that the customer is gonna sell cameras and books we can design for both
2011-03-25 22:11 <sharoon> that is known (columns) unknown (values)
2011-03-25 22:12 <sharoon> but often the case is unknown (columns) unknowns (values)
2011-03-25 22:12 <cedk> sharoon: I don't think in users defining schema
2011-03-25 22:13 <cedk> it is the best way to kill performence, logic and rational ...
2011-03-25 22:13 <sharoon> cedk: its the "hot" feature eg. Magento, Virtuemart
2011-03-25 22:14 <cedk> sharoon: feature like this are not useful indeed, what can you do with unknonw things?
2011-03-25 22:14 <cedk> you can do nothing as you don't know
2011-03-25 22:14 <cedk> sharoon: expect perhaps just redisplay it like it was encoded
2011-03-25 22:15 <sharoon> cedk: hmm, it is what makes magento the popular system it is..... custom attributes is everythng
2011-03-25 22:15 <sharoon> cedk: for example you may want to compare a product to product
2011-03-25 22:15 <cedk> so the simple way will be to store it in a format XML, JSON or whatever in a varchar columns
2011-03-25 22:15 <sharoon> cedk: a blob ?
2011-03-25 22:16 <cedk> sharoon: you can not compare "apples and pears" (don't know if it is English :-)
2011-03-25 22:16 <cedk> sharoon: yes a blob as it is unstructured data
2011-03-25 22:16 <plantian> *apples and oranges
2011-03-25 22:16 <sharoon> cedk: exactly, so if you need to compare one camera with another camera, you need to do it with its own attributes
2011-03-25 22:17 <sharoon> cedk: which is why maintaining its values distinctly is required
2011-03-25 22:17 <sharoon> cedk: and that is where a XML, JSOn storage will fail
2011-03-25 22:17 <cedk> sharoon: which is why it is better to have it in a table (with schema)
2011-03-25 22:17 <sharoon> cedk: you will not be able to search like megapixels = 10
2011-03-25 22:18 <plantian> I think extensive searching and browsing of products might be outside the realm of Tryton and connecting tryton products with another model outside of tryton might be better.
2011-03-25 22:19 <cedk> sharoon: the fastest way to solve this search is having a columns megapixels with an index
2011-03-25 22:19 <cedk> plantian: not completly sure but it is a possibility
2011-03-25 22:20 <cedk> plantian: but I still think it is smarter to have a good database schema
2011-03-25 22:20 <sharoon> cedk: back to the same question - what happens when the number of such attributes is really high
2011-03-25 22:21 <cedk> sharoon: it is not a problem as it is in separate tables
2011-03-25 22:21 <sharoon> cedk: looking at a design doc before me each product type has about 10 attributes each and they will be adding product types in the future
2011-03-25 22:21 <sharoon> cedk: are you sure you can extend (product.product) using _inherits when it already extends from product.template with _inherits ?
2011-03-25 22:22 <cedk> sharoon: it should but I think I fill a bug about search
2011-03-25 22:22 <cedk> sharoon: and even, it is not required to have _inherits
2011-03-25 22:23 <cedk> sharoon: _inherits is just to show a merge of the 3 tables
2011-03-25 22:23 <sharoon> cedk: ok, so what is the alternative ?
2011-03-25 22:23 <cedk> sharoon: the alternative to what?
2011-03-25 22:24 <sharoon> cedk: u mentioned that it is not required to have _inherits?
2011-03-25 22:24 <cedk> sharoon: it is just a many2one to product
2011-03-25 22:25 <cedk> so you have your products in product_product and you store into the camera table the attributes for camera and just link it to the corresponding product
2011-03-25 22:26 <sharoon> cedk: yes, this works and is ideal - but any idea on what to do when the column types is also not known prior ?
2011-03-25 22:26 <cedk> sharoon: blob
2011-03-25 22:27 <sharoon> cedk: :( search limitations then
2011-03-25 22:28 <cedk> sharoon: you can not search for unknown
2011-03-25 22:29 <sharoon> cedk: i really wish i could tell that to the customer :D (but as usual systems like magento does it... )
2011-03-25 22:29 <cedk> sharoon: and I read many times that magento has big performence issue because of that
2011-03-25 22:30 <sharoon> cedk: thats because they suck in EAV
2011-03-25 22:30 <sharoon> design pattern
2011-03-25 22:30 <sharoon> cedk: what I am now thinking is go schemaless with MongoDB
2011-03-25 22:30 <cedk> sharoon: there is not soo much way to store data: schema, EAV or blob
2011-03-25 22:30 <sharoon> cedk:
2011-03-25 22:30 <cedk> sharoon: MongoDB == blob
2011-03-25 22:31 <plantian> cedk: I think it has indexing and searching though right?
2011-03-25 22:32 <cedk> sharoon: I know it is a shorcut but the way you think you will use MongoDB will be the same as having a blob in PostgreSQL
2011-03-25 22:32 <sharoon> cedk: plantian: yes it has indexing, search and a lot more of other features
2011-03-25 22:32 <cedk> plantian: yes but only the one you (DB manager) create
2011-03-25 22:32 <cedk> plantian: with code
2011-03-25 22:32 <sharoon> cedk:
2011-03-25 22:36 <cedk> sharoon: and ?
2011-03-25 22:36 <sharoon> cedk: plantian: any thoughts ? on a quick googling seems like schemaless DBs are replacing Old School EAV
2011-03-25 22:37 <sharoon> cedk: this is scary -
2011-03-25 22:38 <plantian> cedk, sharoon: I think it is a good compromise to store less important data outside of tryton in order to gain flexibility that Tryton cannot afford to give because it is full ERP.
2011-03-25 22:38 <plantian> Although then its just one more system to maintain though so it is just another trade off.
2011-03-25 22:38 <sharoon> i agree, and i think such a schemaless DB could also be used for storage of documents (ir.attachments) which are currently stored in the filesystem
2011-03-25 22:39 <cedk> sharoon: why ?
2011-03-25 22:39 <plantian> ha yeah that seems to have nothing to do with this
2011-03-25 22:39 <sharoon> cedk: GridFS
2011-03-25 22:39 <cedk> please don't fall in this buzz/fanboy trap where everybody wants to put NoSQL everywhere
2011-03-25 22:40 <cedk> sharoon: until now the best way to store file is a filesystem
2011-03-25 22:40 <plantian> sharoon: I agree with cedk's concern.
2011-03-25 22:40 <plantian> *about traps
2011-03-25 22:40 <sharoon> cedk: plantian: and
2011-03-25 22:41 <cedk> sharoon: I guess that FS of GridFS is for filesystem so no need to change anything to use it
2011-03-25 22:42 <plantian> sharoon, cedk: I am interested in this extensible product problem though. I have been stuck with one type of product for a long time and need to get a real e-commerce solution going with products other than just Plants(the only product I have now).
2011-03-25 22:43 <plantian> Right now, party because I moved from other system, I have plant products in another system and references between tryton and that system in order to have search/browse on the website and display product brochure information.
2011-03-25 22:43 <sharoon> cedk: if there are large (**if**) the auto sharding etc could be of great use was what i thought :) i guess thats the way google big table works ?
2011-03-25 22:44 <cedk> sharoon: yes flexible sharding is what is missing right now in trytond
2011-03-25 22:45 <cedk> sharoon: need to find how to solved
2011-03-25 22:45 <cedk> sharoon: but it should be not too complicated
2011-03-25 22:46 <sharoon> cedk: one possibility would be making sure that the folders in the first level (from the digest) decide the sharding (based on mounts)
2011-03-25 22:47 <cedk> sharoon: that's filesystem configuration (no for Tryton)
2011-03-25 22:47 <cedk> sharoon: I mean the number os subfolder should be dynamic
2011-03-25 22:48 <sharoon> cedk: got you :) but wont it be transparent to use something like mongodb... it will also take away the pain in the current system in the way we directy try to manage filesystems
2011-03-25 22:49 <cedk> sharoon: if mongodb provide a filesystem interface
2011-03-25 22:50 <sharoon> cedk: i guess it does... but I am just starting to use it.
2011-03-25 22:51 <sharoon> cedk: so coming back to original question - what do you suggest ?
2011-03-25 22:51 <cedk> sharoon:
2011-03-25 22:51 <sharoon> cedk: interesting
2011-03-25 22:52 <sharoon> cedk: but I am not sure we need that ... we could use the native get and put ?
2011-03-25 22:52 <cedk> sharoon: for me the best is table shema
2011-03-25 22:53 <cedk> sharoon: filesystem is an well define API for file
2011-03-25 22:53 <sharoon> cedk: what do you think of a ModelSchemaless which could be one of the ancestors/bases of a tryton object in join with ModelStorage ?
2011-03-25 22:53 <cedk> sharoon: so we use it
2011-03-25 22:53 <sharoon> cedk: i agree abt the file storage.... this is about the attribute problem
2011-03-25 22:53 <cedk> sharoon: I don't think it is good
2011-03-25 22:53 <cedk> sharoon: I'm more and more thinking about merging ModelStorage and ModelSQL
2011-03-25 22:54 <cedk> sharoon: because any other data storage will be outside the transaction which is really bad for "ERP"
2011-03-25 22:54 <sharoon> cedk: thats not a bad idea though .... we discussed it once
2011-03-25 22:54 <cedk> and more over all the Model schema is linked to RDBMS
2011-03-25 22:55 <sharoon> cedk: agree on that and we cant have any object being purely schemaless
2011-03-25 22:55 <sharoon> cedk: it could be "Not Only SQL"
2011-03-25 22:55 <sharoon> cedk: we use Schema for all regular information
2011-03-25 22:55 <sharoon> cedk: and all extra attributes etc use the Schemaless ?
2011-03-25 22:56 <cedk> sharoon: so you can not use MongoDB to solve your issue of schemaless data
2011-03-25 22:56 <sharoon> cedk: MongoDB alone is not a solution, it has to be used along with ModelSQL even if I have to use it
2011-03-25 22:56 <cedk> sharoon: so I don't see the benefit
2011-03-25 22:57 <cedk> we agree that the paradigm of Tryton is schema ?
2011-03-25 22:57 <sharoon> cedk: use both systems for what they are good at: ModelSQL for the webll defined schema we have and No(t only)SQL for less defined Schemaless data
2011-03-25 22:57 <sharoon> cedk: yes
2011-03-25 22:58 <cedk> sharoon: so you can not use Tryton with schemaless paradigm
2011-03-25 22:59 <sharoon> cedk: :( I have to search for more solutions then... please do let me know if you find something interesting which could address the problem
2011-03-25 22:59 <cedk> sharoon: and I repeat a schemaless solution will be the same as storing data in blob
2011-03-25 22:59 <cedk> with just some faclilities for developpers
2011-03-25 23:00 <sharoon> cedk: i am now considering the Blob also with a function field and allow search like the new search API bechamel proposed
2011-03-25 23:01 <cedk> sharoon: you can store data in a format that allow to make some search easily
2011-03-25 23:02 <sharoon> cedk: easiest i guess would be JSON
2011-03-25 23:02 <cedk> sharoon: like: <attribute name>:<value>,...
2011-03-25 23:02 <cedk> sharoon: not sure JSON will be the best
2011-03-25 23:02 <sharoon> cedk: ok
2011-03-25 23:02 <cedk> sharoon: here you need to store a list of couples
2011-03-25 23:03 <sharoon> cedk: the value could be struct/list
2011-03-25 23:03 <cedk> sharoon: by the way, PostgreSQL has a list column type
2011-03-25 23:04 <cedk> sharoon:
2011-03-25 23:04 <sharoon> cedk: checking
2011-03-25 23:05 <cedk> sharoon: not sure if it is a good idea
2011-03-25 23:05 <sharoon> cedk: i think i have to try prototypes of both
2011-03-25 23:06 <sharoon> cedk: also any ideas on how we could have dynamic views without affecting performance ?
2011-03-25 23:06 <sharoon> cedk: one example we already have is the analytic accounts way of doing it
2011-03-25 23:07 <cedk> sharoon: yes but at the end it is static view
2011-03-25 23:07 <cedk> sharoon: the view is only generated on the fly
2011-03-25 23:07 <sharoon> cedk: yeh true
2011-03-25 23:09 <cedk> sharoon: doesn't seem that SQLite got array type
2011-03-25 23:09 <cedk> sharoon: why not a kind of structured text format
2011-03-25 23:10 <sharoon> cedk: will have to investigate, but would prefer to depend on standards
2011-03-25 23:11 <sharoon> i am told "oracle" has some kind of XML field which does allow search, xpath for use in such cases
2011-03-25 23:13 <cedk> sharoon: not sure it will have good perf but any blob will not have
2011-03-25 23:13 <sharoon> cedk: agree
2011-03-25 23:14 <sharoon> cedk: i will put whatever i develop to code review and lets see if you find it useful
2011-03-25 23:14 <plantian> sharoon: Will you be searching the arbitrary columns of products IN tryton or on e-commerce site?
2011-03-25 23:15 <sharoon> plantian: mostly from e-commerce site - like filter all cameras at 10 MP
2011-03-25 23:16 <plantian> sharoon: Seems that you wouldn't need/use tryton search capabilities in that case. Would website interface directly query trytond?
2011-03-25 23:16 <sharoon> plantian: yes
2011-03-25 23:18 <sharoon> plantian: would be more like, search db.things.find( { x : 3, y : "foo" } ); get the product_id and return all records with the ids in the ids
2011-03-25 23:18 <sharoon> returned by the NoSQL
2011-03-25 23:19 <plantian> sharoon: Why not just store all you need in nosql then and not query trytond at all until sales are made ?
2011-03-25 23:19 <sharoon> plantian: prices, pricelists, stock availability
2011-03-25 23:21 <plantian> sharoon: Yes, I guess I kind of cache those now into another system for website to access. I am worried about performance problems caused by ERP overhead.
2011-03-25 23:22 <plantian> sharoon: Are you going to develop e-commerce from scratch ?
2011-03-25 23:22 <sharoon> plantian: i have done that already
2011-03-25 23:23 <sharoon> plantian: now its developing advanced features like this one :)
2011-03-25 23:23 <plantian> sharoon: Performance is okay?
2011-03-25 23:24 <plantian> sharoon: I am interested in solution because I have some mutant solution right now that requires batches of things to be sent back and forth between systems(one of them tryton).
2011-03-25 23:24 <sharoon> plantian: its fine, we did some load testing and we avoid direct hits to DB for readonly requirement by use of Cache
2011-03-25 23:24 <sharoon> Memcached to be precise
2011-03-25 23:25 <plantian> sharoon: How many products and how many inventory locations ?
2011-03-25 23:25 <sharoon> 1 inventory location and 400 products
2011-03-25 23:25 <sharoon> 4000
2011-03-25 23:26 <sharoon> thats small we know
2011-03-25 23:26 <sharoon> we are now on a bigger project with about 30 stores and 200 K products
2011-03-25 23:26 <plantian> I think inventory location is hardest part but also dynamic price calculation is difficult.
2011-03-25 23:27 <sharoon> plantian: yes, but dynamic calculation must always be cached
2011-03-25 23:27 <plantian> I only have two warehouses but each warehouse has many locations inside it.
2011-03-25 23:28 <plantian> sharoon: Yeah I use memcached on the site but not for caching product information. Its good to know you have gotten a direct interface to work, maybe I will try to move everything to trytond one day.
2011-03-25 23:30 <plantian> sharoon: I had to add another type of list to determine if products are salable at different stores, have you needed to do that too ?
2011-03-25 23:30 <sharoon> plantian: we implemented a logic where each website could have categories enabled and then selectively disable products if required
2011-03-25 23:33 <plantian> sharoon: Nice, I called them salable lists and they are modeled after price list. I had to add another level of flexibility though and have product store salability and product store pricing to be used as the basis for price lists and salable lists.

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