IRC logs of #tryton for Monday, 2010-01-25 #tryton log beginning Mon Jan 25 00:00:02 CET 2010
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CIA-5C?dric Krier <> default * 4:9b5a69b0c482 party_siret/tests/ Fix typo08:23
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CIA-5C?dric Krier <> default * 87:7ab09e98ca3e calendar/COPYRIGHT: Update COPYRIGHT09:16
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CIA-5Fix recurrence comparison by using the same timezone09:16
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CIA-5C?dric Krier <> default * 1457:f0e430cd843c tryton/tryton/gui/window/ (
CIA-5Fix unselect many rows in import/export dialog for issue137409:55
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sharooncedk: is there a crm for tryton or anything in plan?11:15
sharoonbechamel: there?11:15
bechamelsharoon: yes11:15
sharoonbechamel: is there a crm for tryton? or atleast in plan/blueprint?11:16
bechamelsharoon: no there are no crm11:16
sharoonbechamel: any plans/blueprints for it? or anybody already working on it?11:16
cedksharoon: it depends what you name CRM11:17
sharooncedk: Not the Open ERP 'crm' anyway11:17
bechamelsharoon: atm we are pondering on a "relation" modules that would defines roles and relation betweens parties, and that could be a good building block for a crm11:17
cedksharoon: there is some modules on that extends the party model11:18
sharooncedk: my work for the triggers are progressing, may not be really clean because its my first in tryton11:18
sharooncedk: where do i push it for review?11:18
sharooncedk: thanks11:19
bechamelsharoon: the other step for a good crm is some email automation but this also need some thought11:19
sharoonbechamel: thanks, and definitely we are planning our work on it. Poweremail for Tryton11:19
bechamelsharoon: I'm gonna put a code snippet on the wiki that shows how to use trytond as a library11:20
cedkbechamel, sharoon: about the email generation, I thought that we would use reports for that11:20
sharoonbechamel: thanks11:20
bechamelsharoon: great11:20
cedkwe already have email definition on report action that is used by the client to send report by email11:20
sharooncedk: check out the blueprint and the doc i sent you last day,, it will be simialr and based on the triggers11:21
cedksharoon: I check out but I will have some remarks11:22
cedksharoon: first I think it must be splitted in many modules11:22
cedksharoon: I think some parts must be linked with the email integration blue print11:22
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cedkI've got an X crash so I did not see any message since my last one11:25
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cedksharoon: I also think that if we have an IMAP server, we could use email writen in the email client as template for emails11:28
sharooncedk: agree11:29
sharooncedk: we could use templating languages like django or even mako11:29
cedksharoon: we already have relatorio11:29
sharooncedk: i'd prefer to use that for tryton anyway11:29
cedksharoon: I think we must use only one for the coherence11:29
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bechamelcedk, sharoon:
Timitoscedk: i think i found a lack of information in account module.12:26
Timitoscedk: on the TaxLines of account.move there are only tax codes but not the tax where the code does come from12:27
Timitoscedk: i think it would be good to save also the tax there12:28
cedkTimitos: why not12:42
Timitoscedk: ok. i will provide a patch12:42
Timitoscedk: another point. it would be good when the tax codes could become  description field like the taxes because the original description of a tax code could be very long and for the tree a short name would be better. what do you think about?12:44
cedkTimitos: set code as _rec_name12:45
Timitoscedk: but a code is not a name. here in germany we have a real code which is a number. but this is not helpful for the tree view. the real name of the code is too long.12:48
Timitoscedk: an alternative solution could be a text field for a note. would be ok for me too12:49
cedkTimitos: I don't understand what you want to put in12:49
Timitoscedk: i want to put a long description in a second char or text filed on tax code. this way i can put a shorter name on the name field of the tax code to make the tree view more readable12:50
cedkTimitos: so ok12:51
cedkTimitos: you can add a test field on
Timitoscedk: ok. great12:52
Timitoscedk: 3rd point. when the government changes tax rules we will need a solution to set a date range on tax rules.12:54
Timitoscedk: i think it would be good to add two date fields valid_from and valid_to to the tax rule lines12:54
cedkTimitos: in a separate module12:54
Timitoscedk: ok12:55
Timitoscedk: thx for your time.12:57
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sharooncedk: there?16:13
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cedksharoon: yes16:20
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sharooncedk: do we have a calendar view?16:53
cedksharoon: no16:56
cedksharoon: we use CalDAV16:57
sharooncedk: any tutorial for caldav?16:57
cedksharoon: I see, don't forget to put it in the TOC17:05
cedksharoon: I'm not yet sure that leads are a parties17:06
sharooncedk: any alternate suggestions?17:08
cedksharoon: Try to put comment in commit17:08
sharooncedk: Sure17:08
cedksharoon: I don't remeber where I saw that, but they was saying that two salers could have the same party as leads17:09
cedksharoon: so leads could be a Model which is linked to a Party17:10
sharooncedk: but the problem with that is you are going to have everything replicated for that model and you will have unnecessary complication with the history? for example you can have a meeting/todo for a lead17:11
sharooncedk: so using the same model parties will ensure that we use a single point of entry? any suggestions on that?17:12
bechamelcedk, sharoon: imho, crm is a matter of relations: a lead is a relation between two parties (the customer and the salers)17:13
cedkleads is even a step before a sale17:14
sharooncedk: bechamel: This i think is the workflow:17:15
sharoonFirst time sale to an unknown person: Lead17:15
sharoonnot sale, say an enquiry17:15
cedksharoon: I don't think it will complicate the structure to separate leads and party17:15
sharooncedk: so events generated for a lead could be linked to the party?17:15
cedksharoon: why not17:16
sharooncedk: can you alter the blueprint accordingly?17:16
bechamelcedk: when you say separate lead and party, you means completly new module, or you mean lead 'extend' (inherit) party ?17:16
cedksharoon: wait we are thinking17:17
cedkbechamel: a relation many2one between lead and party17:17
bechamelcedk: yes, but will be like employee ? (which is also a m2o to party in a way)17:19
cedkbechamel: yes but with a unique constraint that make it a o2o17:20
cedkI think it was on vTiger or SugarCRM17:20
sharooncedk: i think that sounds good17:20
cedkI'm checking17:20
sharooncedk: sugar is o2o lead:opportunity o2o account17:21
cedkfor info, I use click2try.com17:21
cedksharoon: in sugarcrm an account can have many leads17:28
cedksharoon: and I think account is party in Tryton17:28
sharooncedk: account == party is right17:28
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sharooncedk: i hope i dint miss any messages17:31
cedksharoon: no waiting your comeback17:31
sharooncedk: :-) i think account=party is good| and we can inherit the party object to create a lead17:32
cedksharoon: I think a party can have many leads17:32
sharooncedk: agree17:32
cedksharoon: so you can not inherit party17:32
sharooncedk: so the object has to be built17:33
cedksharoon: yes17:33
sharooncedk: Fields??? Name, Address(O2M)17:34
sharooncedk: and when do we convert it to opportunity?17:35
cedkper example, a company could have two business core: sotfware and hardware. So it can have a leads for software vendor with a company and an other one for hardware17:35
bechamelsharoon: what do you call opportunity ?17:36
cedksharoon: does it need to be converted into opportunity?17:37
cedksharoon: why not just a state17:37
sharooncedk, bechamel: that was my original idea, states in party17:37
cedksharoon: but I think final step of a lead is a sale not a party17:38
bechamelthe state will be on the lead17:38
bechamelfor me one should have to create first a party then add one or several leads on it (likes addresses are created on the party)17:39
sharooncedk: bechamel: thats one way of taking things> Have parties alone and then Leads, Opportunities are real business opportunities?17:39
sharooncedk: bechamel: but when a party has just leads and no real business done, we should not have it clogging everywhere17:43
sharoonbusinesses might have thousands of leads but just a few parties or in SF terms accounts17:43
Timitosi also think that we should see lead and opportunity as an object that is different from a party. for me a the lead object must have a many2one to party.party17:44
cedksharoon: and what is the problem to have thousands of parties?17:45
bechamelsharoon: it's always possible to put active false on the party if the lead is not successfull17:45
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sharooncedk: all of them will appear when a sale order is cleated17:45
cedksharoon: when you make a sale or a purchase, you know the party and you type his name17:45
sharoonbechamel: cedk: i like that idea17:45
cedksharoon: if you sale to someone, you must find it17:45
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cedksharoon: even if it is not yet a customer, it will become17:46
cedkbechamel: bad idea, this is the best way to have duplicate parties17:46
Timitossharoon: there is already the possibility to view all parties that are associated with sales. why not do something like this for leads17:47
bechamelcedk: yes I wrote to fast17:47
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cedkbechamel: I think for sale we must never filter the parties, it could be done on purchase but this will be done by product-supplier links17:48
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sharooncedk: bechamel: Timitos: so can we summarize?17:49
cedksharoon: leads and opportunities are the same model17:50
cedksharoon: they are linked to parties17:50
sharooncedk: OK17:50
cedksharoon: and can be converted into sales17:51
bechamelcedk: this is new ^17:51
cedkin fact I think leads == oppotunity with 0 probavility17:51
sharooncedk: agreed17:51
cedkbechamel: no, I said lead is a step before sale17:51
Timitoscedk: +117:52
bechamelACTION was about to say "so there need a relation between lead and product (or sale lines) ?"17:52
cedkbut we must define what are the minimal required fields on lead/opportun.17:52
sharooncedk +117:53
cedkbechamel: don't know, at least product*s* if one17:53
sharoonbechamel: cedk: Product may bot even be finalised when its in lead stage17:54
sharoonHow about a Subject, Detail in lead stage17:55
bechamelcedk: it's not bad to put product (or sale lines), because (from sugar) there is also an "opportunity amount" on the lead17:55
bechamel.. but maybe on another module17:56
sharoonbechamel: true its opportunity amount, when in opportunity we need to have it17:56
sharoonbechamel: lead is a pointless state17:56
cedkbechamel: I don't say it is bad, I said it must be lines with product and not only one product17:56
cedksharoon: I think we even don't need of a state field, because it could be deduced about the information we had17:57
bechamelcedk: like ?17:58
sharoonbechamel: cedk: how?? can you explain... because in future we might need a pipeline of stages17:58
sharoonsay x as leads, y as opportunities17:58
cedksharoon: it can be, if we have an amount then it is an opportunity17:59
cedksharoon: or it could be any other criteria18:00
sharooncedk: or even probability of winning18:00
sharooncedk: zero probability or unknown = leads18:00
sharoonany opinions?18:01
bechamelmaybe "lead" and "opportunity" are too specialized, maybe one need a more generic word that encompass both18:02
sharoonbechamel: but every CRM has these words18:02
Timitossharoon: i think we will need a field proability like cedk said. it can be a percentage18:03
bechamelsharoon: we like to nitpick on this chan :)18:03
sharoonTimitos: +1 I agree... Percentage 0:Lead, else: opportunity is the question now :-)18:03
cedkACTION bbl18:03
bechamelare there other "states" than lead and opportunity ?18:04
Timitossharoon: i think that the amount and the percentage are different fields18:04
sharoonbechamel: nope, not seen in any CRM so far18:05
Timitossharoon: bechamel: maybe 'lost' ? or 'canceled'18:05
sharoonTimitos: if we design this way then yes18:05
sharoontill now:
sharoonmy chat client is crazy i guess!!!! it pasted to all windows!!!!!18:11
sharooncedk: so how do we go abt this: (Party->Link to Leads/Opportunities), (Leads/Opportunities), ()18:12
sharooncedk: bechamel: Timitos: <<PING>>18:13
Timitossharoon: the relation of lead/opportunity to party is like the releation of to party18:14
bechamelsharoon: a lead contains: title, description, O2M to party, a selection (lead, 0%, 20%, .., Confirmed, cancelled) and optionaly a list of product and quantities18:14
sharoonbechamel: can you confirm: is it O2M party or M2o?18:15
sharoonTimitos: yes i believe... it depends on this answer though :-)18:16
Timitossharoon: i think it is M2O18:16
bechamelsharoon: sorry M2O to party (so the foreign key is on the lead table)18:16
Timitosbechamel: +118:16
sharoonbechamel: Timitos: cedk: i think its ok +118:17
bechamelsharoon: maybe an "amount" field is also needed18:17
bechamelTimitos: ^18:18
Timitosbechamel: yes18:19
sharoonbechamel: Amount as a function of sum of product * qty * rate?18:19
sharoonbechamel: or arbitary amount?18:19
bechamelwe can start with a simple field, and put the product-quantity list on another modules (with an on_change that update the amount, or with a function field that hide the firt one)18:21
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bechamelTimitos: sharoon: if we put a list of product-qty we must also add a wizard that automate sale creation18:22
sharoonbechamel: so lets keep it simple18:22
bechamelsharoon: yes, it's better to create simple module that are easy to extend after18:23
sharoonbechamel: +118:23
sharoonbechamel: updating the CRM wiki with this update.18:23
bechamelsharoon: ok18:24
Timitosbechamel: +1 for wizard. i also agree to start without a product-qty-list as we can add it later in the process easy. with a module or within the generic module18:25
sharoonTimitos: i think it was, have the list of products & quantities, but leave the amount disconnected18:26
bechamelTimitos: yes, looking at sugar crm I also see a 'Campaign' M2O but it can also be added later18:26
Timitossharoon: maybe you should really add the list of products and quantities with another module18:27
Timitosbechamel: yes. this is another topic. this is campain management. not needed in the first module18:28
sharoonbechamel: cedk: Timitos: varun_openlabs:
bechamelsharoon: maybe add '...' after '0%,20%,' to show that one can select other percentages18:34
sharoonbechamel: agree, changing18:35
bechamelsharoon: about history: I see two other solutions:18:36
Timitossharoon: why not using the history function of tryton?18:36
Timitosbechamel: :-)18:36
sharoonbechamel: True!18:36
bechamelsharoon: 1) use history feature of the kernel18:36
sharoonbechamel: Timitos: +118:36
sharoonI love tryton18:36
bechamelsharoon: 2) drop the selection field and create a opportunity.state model with fields: date, state (lead, 0%, ...), comment18:37
sharoonbechamel: can you edit it? anyway i havent used the history feature so far18:37
Timitossharoon: for me the stage field is a mix of two fields. the probability and the status.18:37
sharoonbechamel: agree18:37
Timitosthe status: (lead, opportunity, confirmed, canceled)18:38
Timitosthe propability: a percentage value18:38
bechamelTimitos: yes this is the point, they are mixed on purpose18:38
bechamelTimitos: because they are not really orthogonal18:39
bechamelTimitos: if it's a lead then a percentage makes no sense, if there is a percentage it means that it's an opporunorty, if it's cancelled or done percentage is also not needed18:40
bechamelTimitos: but maybe you see other use cases ?18:41
Timitosbechamel: you can either try to define the state as function field or you can use what you wrote as states for the propability field IMHO18:41
Timitosbechamel: the propability field is necessary for computing a value for the pipeline. so you cannot mix it with a state18:42
sharoonbechamel: Timitos: updated guys18:43
Timitossharoon: which date is stored by the date field?18:44
sharoonTimitos: looks like its going to be the current datetime so we could reuse the create date18:45
Timitossharoon: +118:45
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sharoonbechamel: Timitos: can you give me an example of the usage of historize in the modules18:46
Timitossharoon: take a look at this module:
Timitossharoon: i really recommend to use two fields 'state' and 'propability' instead of creating another object for the state18:48
sharoonTimitos: not necessary i feel18:49
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sharoonTimitos: or is it like, x stage in lead and x stage in opprtunity?18:50
bechamelTimitos: it will depends on how people will use it18:50
bechamelthe biggest problem with one field for both concept is how to filter out the record to get only opportunity (and not lead/cancelled/done)18:51
bechamel*records *opportunities18:51
Timitosbechamel: i think the object crm.opportunity needs a workflow and a state like sale order18:52
Timitosthe percentage is showing detailed state between opportunity -> confirmed18:52
sharoonbechamel: i see the problem now18:53
sharoonTimitos: lets keep this simple for now and work on the workflow later?18:53
Timitossharoon: adding a workflow will be easy when you use a simple state field like i proposed18:54
sharooni agree18:55
bechamelI don't see any advantage for the workflow18:55
sharoonbechamel: just buttons18:57
Timitosbechamel: it is not really necessary for the moment. yes18:57
sharoonbechamel: Timitos: so finally what abtt he percentage and status? i think its better to split them due to the filtering factor u pointed out19:00
Timitossharoon: +119:01
bechamelsharoon: yes, and it can be hidden if status is not equal to opportunity19:02
sharoonbechamel: +1 cool19:02
Timitosbechamel: +119:02
sharooni updated the CRM wiki19:03
Timitossharoon: as you already have history on crm.opportunity i think you can merge crm.opportunity and crm.opportunity.state19:04
Timitosbut be careful. for the moment there is still the view missing for the history table19:05
sharoonTimitos: the view is important for history table19:05
Timitossharoon: i think there are two history aspects on this object model19:06
sharoonTimitos: please can you explain?19:07
TimitosACTION is just thinking about19:07
Timitossharoon: i am not sure what you try to do with crm.opportunity.state19:08
Timitossharoon: the first aspect is to track all changes on the crm.opportunity object which can be done with history of the tryton kernel19:08
Timitosthe second aspect is to add further information about activities of the user or the lead/opportunity party i think19:09
Timitossharoon: does this fit to your aims?19:09
sharoonTimitos: planning to use events and calendar todos with this19:10
sharoonTimitos:  crm.opportunity.state is to record the entire history of change with a comment. to find the time taken to convert etc etc... future, but the schema must be set now!19:11
Timitossharoon: i think exactly this is tryton kernel history doing. with the problem that for the moment the view is missing. but maybe it would be better to invest into this view than to do it another way19:14
bechameladding the history feature on the leads is more for stuff like "what was all my leads 6 month ago" (what i would call monitoring) and adding a O2M to opportunity.state is more for "OK this one lead, what was all the step made on it, what can I do next, etc" (more day to day operations)19:14
sharoonbechamel: agree +119:14
Timitosbechamel: sharoon already said that he wants to use calendar todo and events for future. so why not use the history function for history?19:15
bechamelcalendar stuff is advanced feature imo so it would be in a separate module19:16
Timitossharoon: i can understand your plans and it is possible like this. but maybe with history it could be easier as the history will be created by tryton19:17
Timitosbechamel: yes19:17
bechamelsharoon: don't forget that in tryton todo and event are real models (so events must be created and updated) not just a date field picked anywhere in the db19:17
sharoonbechamel: just want to link it to the vents and todo in the calendar module19:18
sharoonbechamel: just a link and i want to relate event & todo to partner19:19
Timitossharoon: +119:19
bechamelsharoon: what I see is a wizard that will help the user to create a todo/event from the current lead, but once again it's not needed in the base module19:24
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cedkwhy should we named it crm.opportunity? I find sale.opportunity better20:10
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bechamelcedk: sale.opportunity? what would be the name of the module ?20:24
udonobechamel: I vote for sale_opportunity as module name20:30
bechameludono: yes, seems good20:35
cedkbechamel: crm is like if we named other modules erp20:38
vengfulsquirrelWho suggested crm? Maybe other crm related modules would be needed but would not work under sale?20:38
vengfulsquirrelJust a thought.20:38
cedkvengfulsquirrel: just find the right name for the right module20:39
cedkvengfulsquirrel: it is sharoon who suggests crm20:39
cedkvengfulsquirrel: I guess it is because he needs some crm functionnalities20:39
cedkI still don't understand the opportunity.state Model20:40
cedkand really dislike the selection 10%, 20% ... 90%, 100%20:40
cedkI think it must be an integer20:40
bechamelcedk: maybe sharoon choose crm because it's the name used in openerp20:43
bechamelcedk: what do you think about using a model to store (date, state, comment) vs using historisation ?20:47
udonobechamel: I think 'crm' is a good meta name for a collection of different modules20:49
cedkbechamel: I think history can do the job21:02
bechamelcedk: actually one can show the history of the current record in a readonly O2M21:03
cedkbechamel: yes and even show only a subset of it21:04
cedkbechamel: when state changed per example21:04
bechamelcedk: yes good idea21:04
cedkbechamel: I think it is really more powerful then any other kind of modeling21:04
bechamelcedk: and it's easier for the user: change the state+save the form instead of: open a O2M, define state, close popup, save form21:05
udonocedk: how many arguments can And(...), Or(...) in JSON DSL have? Only two, or more?21:22
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udonooh, I see, its only two arguments
bechameludono: two or more21:30
bechameludono: check the eval, it use reduce() on a list21:31
udonobechamel: So I can use Not(And(a,b,c)) ?21:33
bechameludono: yes21:34
udonobechamel: thanks21:37
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udonoDid I need to explicit write states={'readonly': "active == False"} or is it predefined in model, when there is an active field?22:20
bechameludono: no it's not predefined22:23
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cedkmysql is *worst* than sqlite23:32
cedkthe max key length constraint of 1000 bytes is really a pain23:33
cedkI don't think it will be possible to make a descent port of Tryton to MySQL23:33
cedkI don't understand how OpenERP can run on MySQL23:37
cedkor perhaps I don't use the right engine23:39
cedkmysql by default use MyISAM instead of InnoDB23:47
bechamelcedk: size constraints on char is also needed with InnoDB ?23:51
cedkbechamel: don't know23:51
cedkbechamel: now my init script doesn't work with InnoDB23:51
bechamelbut hey, with oepr and mysql you can enjoy "lower power consumption" xD23:53
cedkbechamel: it seems my previous definition of foreign that was working doesn't any more with InnoDB23:54
bechamelcedk: foreign what ?23:55
vengfulsquirrelcedk: I think myisam used to ignore foreign keys, maybe that still hasn't changed.23:55
cedkbechamel: foreign key23:56
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cedkvengfulsquirrel: ok, it seems it is foreign key with on delete set null23:57
vengfulsquirrelcedk: : '''For storage engines other than InnoDB, MySQL Server parses the FOREIGN KEY syntax in CREATE TABLE statements, but does not use or store it.'''23:58

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