IRC logs of #tryton for Friday, 2010-03-26

chat.freenode.net #tryton log beginning Fri Mar 26 00:00:02 CET 2010
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oiaohmcedk I worked out what is required to make what I want work.  Only one thing I am not looking forward to the alteration.  Lot of areas where the system will be depending on a single id primary key value.  Will have to be replaced with three values.  Internal used primary key, source id and source key11:50
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cedkoiaohm: don't understand11:54
cedkoiaohm: you want to change in Tryton the internal id?11:57
oiaohmIf there is a source id(Ie name server/client that operates async) with source numbers( being like asyncs client own primary key values).  Ie source being for async client or multi server setups.11:57
oiaohmYep to allow servers or clients with own server to operate independant to each other and merge data latter.  cedk11:58
cedkoiaohm: just create a model that will store the map11:59
oiaohmAlso provides tracking back to who added what.11:59
oiaohmI was thinking of allows like the old paper based recept book system.   cedk12:00
oiaohmIe each recept book has its own id to it numbers so people with there own servers can genate the invoices on location straight up.12:01
oiaohmAll that is important is that the data all syncs up perfectly in the end.12:01
cedkoiaohm: the map will be: reference field, external id12:03
oiaohmAt min the invoice numbers would have to be changed.12:03
oiaohmto allow on location generation.12:04
oiaohmIe so printed invoice and invoice record in main server matchs up.12:04
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cedkoiaohm: don't understand12:11
oiaohmWhen you print a invoice you have to put a invoice number on it.12:11
oiaohmYou cannot have the invoice number duplicated up.12:12
oiaohmAnd if the machine is doing that not connected to main server.  It has to have a way to know what range of numbers it can use.12:12
oiaohmBasically a ID number of not connected like 111 and invoice from that machine 222.  And the printed invoice number being 111:222    Main server would be using different number like 100:<invoices geneated on server>12:15
cedkoiaohm: it is impossible to have invoice generation in async way12:15
oiaohmNo its not.12:16
cedkoiaohm: because law requires that the invoice number are in an increasing sequence12:16
oiaohmOk where.12:16
oiaohmHere the important thing is that overlap is not possiable.12:17
cedkoiaohm: the legislator made this to ensure that you don't fraud12:18
oiaohmI am in Australia by the way  cedk12:18
cedkoiaohm: otherwise it is too easy the generate invoice and not declare it to state12:18
cedkoiaohm: I'm pretty sure that the Australia law do the same, otherwise it is too easy to fraud12:19
oiaohmNo we have to declare all existing invoice books.  Just like receipt books.12:19
oiaohmEach zone has to be increasing sequence12:20
oiaohmBut we are not forbin from having multiable zones.12:20
cedkoiaohm: so just append an unique prefix12:22
oiaohmYep the prefix here to a new list of invoice has to be unque.12:22
oiaohmAnd also unless you want auditors picking on you sequenial.12:23
cedkoiaohm: you can not enforce this on different database12:24
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cedkoiaohm: you must just make a right configuration12:24
cedkoiaohm: but is your business so big that you require such configuration?12:26
oiaohmNot that big lots mobile staff.12:27
oiaohmThere are a few ways central server set the ids. cedk12:28
cedkoiaohm: and you must generate invoce on the road?12:28
oiaohmPrefered if possible.  This way clients cannot claim they did not get the invoce.12:29
cedkoiaohm: what you make them sign a paper that said they receive your invoice?12:31
oiaohmIts more the post here.   It is possiable for a letter to get lost for 3 months at a time.12:31
oiaohmOn a post path that will normally take under 1 day.12:32
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oiaohmOf course with trouble making clients we already have to have them sign paper to say we did X work or they will try to worm out of paying anything.  So having those sign for invoice really would not be anything different either.12:34
cedkoiaohm: very weird that you can not rely on post12:38
cedkoiaohm: and you don't have internet access on the road?12:39
oiaohmNot everywhere unless you go up to sat.12:39
oiaohmAnd portable sat is expensive.12:40
cedkoiaohm: how much customer have you in place where there is no internet?12:41
cedkoiaohm: because I think you must compare the amount with the cost of developping an async invoicing system12:41
oiaohmAbout 60 percent of customer base are sat only.12:42
cedkoiaohm: and so your customers don't have internet?12:44
oiaohmIntersting question how does USA handle people using paper invoice books with pre printed numbers like 1 to 100.12:44
oiaohmThey have internet cedk by sat that we may or may not be allowed to use.12:44
oiaohmMostly because sat internet is not cheep.12:44
cedkoiaohm: just make your customers pay more if they don't allow you to use their internet connection :-)12:45
oiaohmAlso some have data secuirty polices as well.12:45
cedkoiaohm: by the way, what is your business?12:45
cedkoiaohm: are you sure what kind of company could not have a descent internet connection but have security experts inside?12:46
oiaohmRemote area IT .  This includes flying to properities.12:46
oiaohmlocations.12:47
oiaohmIssue is not that the customer does not have descent internet connection.  Some of there connections are pure VPN links back into there main networks.12:47
oiaohmNot like every business has to allow their staff to internet  surf.12:48
cedkoiaohm: so you give invoice to branch and not to the headquarter12:52
oiaohmLots of these branch has to enter there costs.  The data is then transfered to headquaters electronically.12:54
oiaohmYes some mining companies for you cedk12:55
cedkoiaohm: it is a very specific case12:57
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oiaohmI think it would be worth while to look into if the USA system would support independ blocks of invoices.12:58
oiaohmOurs is a very special case.  But I have seen a fairly large retailer here run into trouble due to a central server pos going down.12:59
oiaohmYet another one have the same problem but using a system where each pos was a independant group of invoice numbers ie basically could stand on own feet.  Have no issues at all.13:00
oiaohmYes you feel the different as the IT person sorting the failure out.13:01
cedkoiaohm: your main issue is that you want to generate invoice on the road13:02
cedkoiaohm: generally POS makes only sales and not invoices13:02
cedkoiaohm: because most of the time invoice are reviewed by accountance13:03
oiaohmThese poses I am refering to could do layby as well so yes could generate invoices. cedk13:04
oiaohmhttp://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/50913.htm  I just looked up the rules on an Australian Tax Invoice.  Nasty enough I don't have to have invoice numbers at all.13:05
oiaohmSo my law here has a lot more flex than yours cedk13:08
oiaohmReally the only restriction here is how much of a pain on ass do you want auditors to be.13:10
oiaohmOk UK allows prefixing with the requirement that all invoice numbers are unique.  Does not have to be even ordered.13:14
oiaohmhttp://www.ir35calc.co.uk/how_to_prepare_an_invoice.aspx13:15
oiaohmI guess there is no site comparing all the difference legal requirements for invoices around the world.  cedk13:17
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oiaohmcedk: what was the last line of mine your saw.13:21
oiaohmI think I am going to have to do a bit of homework on world invoice number requirements.13:21
oiaohmAustralia where I am we have none.   If you have a invoice number it your choice.13:21
oiaohmUk the requirement is that the number is unique13:22
oiaohmAnd that is the only requirement.13:22
oiaohmIt don't even have to be a number it could be a word or text or anything.13:22
cedkoiaohm: in Belgium, it must be a logical incremental serie13:30
cedkoiaohm: in Australia, do you have taxes?13:31
cedkoiaohm: and if yes, can tax amount from company to company be deduced13:32
cedkACTION lunch13:32
oiaohmcedk: under gst tax invoices yes.  But  Our goverment has a Linux super computer for auditing businesses.  Invoices are compared between companies.  When they audit they audit complete sections at a time.13:38
oiaohmcedk: other thing placing date on australian invoices is a requirement.13:47
oiaohmcedk: tax office here is working by date.13:51
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cedksharoon, Red15: about the protocols available14:58
cedkthere is netrpc (custom python), xml-rpc and json-rpc (for 1.6)14:59
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cedkin the client no need to select a protocol because client only talk netrpc14:59
cedkwe choose netrpc because it is faster then any others15:00
Red15hmm, but default also has support for xml-rpc ?15:01
Red15so maybe not enabled by default but it's still there15:01
Red15trying to get tryton to run here, having DAV import problems15:02
Red15not really interested in DAV though15:02
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Red15<Red15> trying to get tryton to run here, having DAV import problems15:03
Red15<Red15> not really interested in DAV though15:03
Red15not yet that is15:03
cedkRed15: which default are you talking?15:04
cedkRed15: to have WebDAV you must install pywebdav15:04
cedkRed15: otherwise don't activate it15:05
Red15well i used the automatic install15:08
Red15the error happens in calendar module15:08
Red15do i just remove/disable calendar module ?15:08
cedkRed15: calendar module requires pywebdav15:09
cedkRed15: as it exposes calendar on CalDAV15:09
cedkRed15: in Tryton, we try to enforce user to only install modules they need15:10
cedkRed15: and no more15:10
Red15ok so unlike openerp you dont need calendar module just for basic meeting appointments ?15:10
sharoonRed15: there are no unnecessary dependencies... i see that its extremely minimal in tryton15:11
sharoonRed15: see there is no bulky base module15:11
cedkRed15: I don't know what you except for "basic meeting appointments"15:14
Red15well i'm only familiar with openerp crm and it's calendar functions, i figured tryton would have similar buildup around crm15:14
Red15my first remark might be a bit silly but it bugs me, the trytond needs to be launched from bin, but modules is not inside this dir15:15
Red15so i have to continually switch in and out of the bin dir15:15
cedkRed15: no, you can launch trytond from any directory15:17
Red15i know but not from trytond dir :) because it complains when you run python server.py or so15:21
Red15don't really care for the client vertical tabs, it makes people tilt their head15:21
cedkRed15: of course, Python requires a trytond module15:21
cedkRed15: bin/trytond is there to allow that15:21
cedkRed15: that is really common in Python package15:22
Red15so is tryton already usable as a library then ?15:22
sharoonRed15: yes and did u see the article on django + tryton?15:23
cedkRed15: yes of course, we try to follow Python standard15:23
cedkRed15: you can install trytond with: easy_install trytond15:24
cedkRed15: it works15:24
Red15oh ok , but it doesnt have any modules by itself then right ?15:24
Red15hmm : AttributeError: 'etree._ElementTree' object has no attribute 'iter'15:25
Red15when trying to print party letter15:25
cedkRed15: which version of lxml?15:26
cedkRed15: and which OS?15:26
Red15can't really say i'm utterly impressed by tryton so far to be honest15:26
Red15ubuntu 8.0415:27
Red15like i have a WebDAV menu in configuration even though i have removed calendar module completely15:27
Red15Source: lxml15:27
Red15Version: 1.3.6-115:27
cedkRed15: if you have installed webdav module15:28
cedkRed15: you must update lxml15:29
cedkRed15: at least 2.015:29
Red15why doesnt relatorio or even the module checks for version instead of just blindly assuming the version is correct ?15:30
cedkRed15: I will fix setup.py to enforce lxml >=2.015:32
Red15ah i see, because lxml totally doesnt specify a version checking mechanism inside python ...15:32
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cedkRed15: it is especially because lxml doc doesn't specify when a feature have been added15:33
Red15at this point i still feel tryton lags behind in ease, it's a very subjective feeling i know15:33
cedkRed15: if you want easy install, just take the package from ubuntu15:35
cedkhttp://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=default&section=all&arch=any&searchon=names&keywords=tryton15:35
cedkRed15: of course it is easy with OpenERP because they embed library15:35
Red15dont really understand why you need lxml anyway to be honest15:36
Red15any xml parsing i have done with python (and i admit it isn't much) i've done with the default embedded xml tools of python15:36
Red15and i realize speed may not be one of the strong points of the default xml tools for python, but be honest, xml isn't chosen for its speed ... ever15:37
cedkRed15: relatorio use lxml for odt parsing15:38
cedkRed15: and there speed is important15:38
cedkRed15: and default python xml parsing has not enough fonctionnality to be able to perform all the XML operation we need15:39
cedkRed15: there is not support for xpath15:39
cedkRed15: I already write a patch to remove lxml from trytond http://codereview.appspot.com/223053/show15:42
cedkRed15: but removing it from relatorio is more difficult15:42
cedkRed15: so I did not apply the patch because we still require lxml15:42
Red15the webdav isnt a module, it's in the trytond directory itself...15:46
Red15it's the collections , so it's enabled by default as well ?15:47
cedkRed15: it is a module15:48
cedkRed15: there is some default module in Tryton: ir, res, webdav and workflow15:49
cedkRed15: if you generated the database with "trytond -d database -i all"15:50
cedkRed15: of course you have webdav activated for this database15:50
Red15used the client creation method15:52
Red15i can understand ir, res and workflow, but why webdav as well ?15:53
cedkRed15: so webdav module must not be activated by default15:53
Red15still it creates the webdav -> collections menu in the configuration15:54
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cedkRed15: which version?15:57
Red15mercurial checkout15:57
Red15with the tryton-dev.py script15:57
Red15translations loading is very slow it seems ?15:58
Red15hope you're not getting totally angry at me for these live comments btw :)15:59
sharoonRed15: it may not be translations15:59
sharoonRed15: it must be the countries and states15:59
Red15i did a select * from pg_stat_activity;15:59
cedkRed15: oops, my fault webdav is activate by default16:00
Red15SELECT * FROM (SELECT "account_account".id AS id,"account_account"."create_date" AS "create_date","account_account"."reconcile" AS "reconcile","account_account"."write_uid" AS "write_uid","account_account"."code" AS "code","account_account"."right" AS "right","account_account"."create_uid" AS "create_uid","account_account"."template" AS "template","account_account"."type" AS "type","account_account"."parent" AS "parent","account_account"."company" AS "co16:00
Red15mpany","account_account"."write_date" AS "write_date","account_account"."active" AS "active","account_account"."second_currency" AS "second_currency","account_account"."kind" AS "kind","account_account"."deferral" AS "deferral","account_account"."left" AS "left",(COALESCE("account_account".write_date,"account_account".create_date)) AS _timestamp FROM "account_account" LEFT JOIN "ir_translation" AS "ir_translation_account_account_name" ON ("ir_translation16:00
Red15_account_account_name".res_id = "account_account".id AND "ir_translation_account_account_name".name = 'acco16:00
cedkRed15: I think it is to not have error when user activate webdav16:00
Red15ouch, sorry didnt realize it was this long16:00
cedkRed15: please use copy/paste webservice16:00
Red15cedk, wouldn't you use depends for that instead ?16:00
Red15making a small module and making all webdav related modules depend on this16:01
cedkRed15: network interface are not based on modules16:01
Red15yet it does contain a __tryton__.py16:01
cedksharoon, Red15: yes country and currency are a little bit slow to work but they contains all the countries and all the currencies16:02
Red15loading tax_be.xml16:03
cedkwe already improved it in comparaison to OpenERP16:03
Red15almost 10 minutes ...16:03
sharooncedk: i really dont mind it because the simple delay in installation gives great benefits in using and hence saves time in using16:03
sharooncedk: and being iso codes states and country was great help in our integration with paypal16:04
Red15still is this expected ? 10 minutes for a 90kb xml file ?16:04
cedksharoon: agree, it is better to have all countries or any but not a subset16:04
sharoonRed15: 10 mins not sure16:05
cedkRed15: it depends of your hardware16:05
Red15openerp does this in less than 10 sec ... ?16:05
Red15same hardware16:05
cedkRed15: what did you install?16:05
Red15account_be16:05
cedkRed15: so country, currency and account_be16:06
Red15+ the dependencies, but just the tax_be.xml is running for the last 10 minutes16:06
cedkRed15: it is the three bigger modules16:06
Red15but loading country.xml took 30~ seconds16:07
sharoonRed15: cedk: never used module account_be :P16:07
Red15ok it's finally done16:07
sharoonRed15: country is ok, look at the countries & states installed16:07
sharoonRed15: its full16:07
Red15bah unfortunatly i can't paste a log because this xml was the last16:07
Red15but it rand for 12 minutes at least16:08
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cedkRed15: made the same install on my old PC, 4mins16:11
Red15very weird16:11
Red15[   22.101280] Calibrating delay loop (skipped), using tsc calculated value.. 4988.07 BogoMIPS (lpj=9976140)16:12
Red15[   22.537304] Calibrating delay using timer specific routine.. 4988.04 BogoMIPS (lpj=9976097)16:12
Red15model name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T9300  @ 2.50GHz16:12
Red15model name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU     T9300  @ 2.50GHz16:12
sharoonRed15: i have a 256 mb ram cloud on rackspace and it takes lesser time but with ubuntu 9.0416:13
Red15any tweaking on postgres ?16:13
Red15mine just ran out of the box16:14
cedkRed15: the same but on Gentoo16:14
cedkand bogomips: 4000.1416:15
cedkon single core cpu16:15
cedksharoon: got sale_opportunity that generates sale16:18
sharooncedk: cooooool!!16:18
cedksharoon: just still need some access rights definition to be tryton standard compliant16:18
cedksharoon: do you want to review already it?16:18
sharooncedk: did u remove those buttons array16:18
cedksharoon: yes just three buttons16:19
sharooncedk: ok16:19
cedksharoon: cancel|lost|...16:19
cedksharoon: I also make that the workflow stop on cancel and lost16:19
cedksharoon: but you can reset to lead16:20
sharooncedk: yes, otherwise it wont let delete the record16:20
cedksharoon: I also improved history16:20
sharooncedk: yeh for generic nature all fields have to be displayed in history? was that the improvement?16:21
cedksharoon: it did no more display double records16:21
cedksharoon: so all fields are displayed16:21
cedksharoon: I also add history on lines16:21
cedksharoon: and with the workflow there is two write at the creation16:22
sharooncedk: ok, its very important for DM & DW!! hopefully i can do some work on that16:22
cedkso now for the double create/write it show only one history line16:22
cedksharoon: who is DM & DW ?16:22
Red15cedk why did you choose to do translations in flat csv files? and not in a directory (and po)16:22
cedkRed15: because it fit the translation mecanism of Tryton16:23
cedkRed15: the translation mecanism is also use for records created by users16:23
Red15i know but openerp does use po and can generate po files from your ir.translation records16:24
cedkRed15: there is http://groups.google.com/group/tryton/browse_thread/thread/ecf187a89d4475db/16:25
sharooncedk: DM- Data mining & DW-Data warehousing... i am actually specialising on that :)16:25
cedkRed15: I think it can not work correctly because ir.translation is more precis about the string to translate then a po file16:25
Red15i find it hard to believe that po would not be able to handle this16:26
Red15in fact po should not even care about where it is used, it just takes every occurance of word and replaces it16:26
cedkRed15: in Tryton (and also OpenERP) you can have the same string translated with different words16:27
Red15yea, my proposed solution is to have text on screen generated uniquely16:27
Red15and always load a default language english which translate label#593 (for example) to Sales16:27
cedkRed15: and I think that we must stay as closed as possible of the internal format otherwise you have issue like with the sxw|rml|pdf stuffs16:27
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cedkRed15: I don't think it is a good solution because how do you handle translation of records generated by users?16:28
cedkRed15: like product name16:28
Red15record_id + fieldname ?16:29
Red15uh model + record_id + fieldname16:29
cedkRed15: it is already the case16:29
cedkRed15: and what about reports, you want to create it with code instead of words?16:30
Red15if you select no language it can output unique identifiers16:30
Red15preferably the coder would use unique references16:30
Red15instead of using readable names16:30
Red15and the system in openerp actually kinda works, but i know some po tools mangle the comments and things can go wrong when trying to import those, but that is basically just a bug in openerp16:32
cedkRed15: our current implementation works also16:32
Red15it's just that you say you want to stay as close to other opensource16:32
Red15po is the way 90% (or more) use for translations16:33
cedkif somebody write a correct export/import script to do it, I have no objection16:33
cedkbut I will not spend my time on this16:34
Red15i understand, but its exactly what i wanted to hear16:34
Red15because these kind of discussions are just shot down usually16:34
cedkRed15: I prefer improve other stuff then that16:35
Red15cedk, i understand that, but can you also understand that the reason po files work and are used is because there is more to translation than you might have considered at this point ?16:35
Red15same as with most opensource technology, dont try to reinvent the wheel because someone who made a special wheel will have thought of more issues than you will because your wheel is only used in one or the other way, not in as many ways as the generic wheel is16:36
cedkRed15: but I will be very punctilious about the implementation, it must work correctly16:37
Red15absolutely, that is your responsibility16:37
Red15but it's not responsible if you would say: i never want po files16:38
cedkRed15: yes, but I can say I will never want to have mo files :-)16:38
Red15i'll rename those then :D16:38
cedkRed15: because gettext is not thread-safe16:38
cedkRed15: and trytond has already a database16:39
Red15yes, i agree the database structure is good, it's the import/export that could benefit from .po16:39
Red15because it will make work for translators easier16:39
Red15in fact instead of only having po files i would suggest to make it a plugin like system16:40
cedkRed15: but an other point is that I find good that we must use the tryton client to make translation that forces us to improve his usability16:40
Red15because there are other standards for translation files16:40
cedkRed15: no really agree for plugin system16:40
cedkRed15: we must have one way to do it16:41
cedkRed15: it is the Python philosophy :-)16:42
cedksharoon: do you think we must have a group for opportunities or use the sale one?16:42
Red15cedk, so you do not agree for plugin like system ?16:43
Red15cedk, one way to do it yes, but possibly many implementations, why else have PEP 249 ?16:44
Red15http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0249/16:44
cedkRed15: because each language translator will want to use different plugin16:45
Red15so ? as long as all the data can be read into the database and then possibly exported again to be uniformly distributed16:46
cedkRed15: this will break the homogeneity16:46
cedkRed15: you will need to have the plugins to run trytond16:46
Red15no, only to load this data16:46
cedkRed15: so to run it is the same16:47
cedkRed15: you need to load the data when you create a database16:47
Red15so it would only become a dependency if the distributor of this module distributes his translations in this format16:47
cedkRed15: but you don't have one translator, you have one per language16:47
Red15so you would rather turn people with translating skills away than have an open choice of import format ?16:48
Red15one per module possibly too16:48
cedkRed15: I think it is a waste of time16:48
cedkRed15: of course you want to make your own module, I don't care16:48
Red15i'm not planning to make all those modules16:49
Red15but people want to have a choice16:49
cedkbut Tryton will have a prefered way by default16:49
Red15if that's the official viewpoint thats ok, as long as the other ways arent blackholed16:50
cedkRed15: look http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6127548813950043200#16:50
sharooncedk: i think a separate secutity level for opportunities is better, and the sales users could have this permission too16:51
cedksharoon: agree16:51
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cedksharoon: do you think everybody can read opportunities?17:49
sharooncedk: i am not sure but dont think its a good idea... i remember my client set record rules to say that closed leads could not be read by the lower level sales reps and customer care17:50
sharooncedk: the converted leads must not be available for read to low level users?17:51
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cedksharoon: ok by default no read access, people who want it will create a model access17:55
cedksharoon: because the other way will make it almost impossible to deactivate access17:55
sharooncedk: yes because default rules cannot be modified17:55
cedksharoon: the issue is that we allow read access to sale to any user18:02
sharooncedk: i think we leave it open18:05
sharooncedk: but allo user to define rules18:05
cedksharoon: "allo" ?18:05
sharooncedk: typo :) let users define rules18:06
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cedksharoon: http://codereview.appspot.com/77904118:18
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