IRC logs of #tryton for Thursday, 2011-02-03

chat.freenode.net #tryton log beginning Thu Feb 3 00:00:02 CET 2011
yangooncedk: so please go ahead, I will try to do it this weekend or soon after, if this nakes more sense00:01
cedkyangoon: ok00:02
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udonohttp://bugs.tryton.org is down08:31
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udonobechamel: hi, http://bugs.tryton.org is down09:33
bechameludono: unfortunatly I don't have enough right to reboot the server09:37
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Lo-lan-doHi all :-)11:56
Lo-lan-doI just went through a bunch of suppliers' invoices, and Tryton's ability to save default lines depending on the supplier is just *awesome* :-)11:56
Lo-lan-doOn an unrelated note, I'm currently wondering how the client saves the open tabs between sessions, because it currently opens only one when I start the client, and I can't find how to change that.11:59
cedkLo-lan-do: you can change the Home action in the user preferences12:00
Lo-lan-doThe item only gives me one choice (Menu) currently.  Do I need to define new actions?12:01
Lo-lan-doAlso, I like having the menu in addition to other tabs, but currently on startup I get the menu plus one tab (open sales).12:02
cedkLo-lan-do: yes you must define an action that do what you want12:03
Lo-lan-doI see.  Thanks.12:04
Lo-lan-doI'll have a look when time permits.  Thanks again for tryton, it really rocks :-)12:05
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udonohey, someone on FOSDEM this weekend?16:15
cedkudono: me16:17
udonocedk: I think about to come, too. But unsure.16:18
cedkudono: Bertrand and me will be there16:19
udonocedk: sounds good16:20
udonocedk: bechamel: are you there as visitors or exhibitor?16:22
bechameludono: visitors16:24
cedkudono: visitors16:24
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udonoplantian: Do you have some experiences in cash based accounting method? http://www.allbusiness.com/accounting-reporting/methods-standards-cash/1308-1.html http://womeninbusiness.about.com/od/glossaryofaccountingterm/g/definition-cost-basis-accounting.htm17:18
udonoplantian: specially in US17:18
udonoI ask me if cash-based accounting method is only a topic in USA, Germany, Swiss and Austria?17:21
cedkudono: I know you can do cash accounting for tax in france under specific condition17:28
udonocedk: ah, ok. Do you know these conditions? And is it only for VAT on income or for VAT on expenses, too?17:29
udonoACTION even do not know if frace has VAT on expenses...17:30
cedkudono: I think it makes no sense to use different method for income and for expense17:31
Lo-lan-doWhat's the question about VAT and France?  Maybe I can be of help…17:33
cedkLo-lan-do: udono would like to know where there is cash-based accounting17:34
udonocedk: AFAIK it makes much sense for different methods. US can choose between different methods. And Germany has always accrual basis for expenses and cash-basis for income if you choose and if your enterprise fulfills certain conditions.17:36
cedkudono: that's make no sense17:37
udonoLo-lan-do: cash-basis accounting is a simplified accounting method for smaller companies. I request in which nations it is used.17:37
Lo-lan-doHm.  To the best of my knowledge (and I'm a geek, not an accountant), in France you either do cash-based for both income and expenses or accrual for both.17:37
cedkudono: Are you really sure about what you say?17:38
Lo-lan-doThis probably depends on your fiscal/social status.  In mine, I could switch to accrual.17:38
udonocedk: Maybe an example helps:17:38
Lo-lan-doI think small companies can't do accrual (I couldn't, initially, and then I had to change my status because I started making reasonably high amounts of money).17:39
cedkudono: no need, I understand what you said17:40
cedkudono: but I find it is not logical to work like this17:40
cedkudono: it breaks the basis of accounting17:41
udonoMy enterprise uses the cash-based method of accounting. When I write an invoice to another company, it is done cash-based. This means, I must only pay the taxes to the government after I received the payment from the other company. On the other Hand, if my enterprise receive an Invoice from another company, I can strictly ask the government to get the taxes back, even when I did not payed the invoice.17:43
udonocedk: about this I am sure.17:44
cedkudono: your MP are not logical17:46
udonoMP17:46
udono?17:46
cedkudono: deputy17:47
udonocedk: :-)17:47
cedkudono: you can easily make fraud with such system17:47
udonowhen I read http://womeninbusiness.about.com/od/glossaryofaccountingterm/g/definition-cost-basis-accounting.htm correctly, in USA you can mix the methods up you like.17:47
udonoLo-lan-do: Thanks for investigation17:49
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cedkLo-lan-do: I think it is the opposite: cash accounting exists for small companies. Accrual is the best way but require most of the time a bigger starting fund17:50
cedkudono: look at this:17:50
udonocedk: Lo-lan-do: Do you know the French expressions for cash-accounting and accrual accounting methods?17:50
cedkI have company A and you have company B17:50
cedkboth with your cash way17:51
cedkI sent you invoices with taxes17:51
cedkso you will ask to be reimburesed17:52
cedknow your company makes Invoices to A17:52
cedkbut nobody never pays17:52
cedkso A can ask to be reimbursed17:52
cedkso every body get money from the government but nobody will never pay any taxes17:53
Lo-lan-doudono: That would be something like "comptabilité en recettes-dépenses" or "comptabilité en créances-dettes".17:54
cedkudono: it is a tax carousel fraud17:54
cedkLo-lan-do: yes17:54
udonocedk: yes tax fraud is always a problem for the government. And yes, its called tax caroussell in Germany, too.17:55
cedkudono: generaly, you must do this across country but looks like in Germany it is easier17:55
udonoLo-lan-do: Thanks17:56
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udonocedk: AFAIK German finance agencies can look every time they like into your Bank accounts.17:59
udonocedk: s/your/mine/18:00
cedkudono: does not help18:02
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JamesPharaohhi, is there an easy way to set up different document templates for different companies in tryton? also how can i customise the header - this seems to be part of the distribution and not editable through the gui like the other reports19:38
cedkJamesPharaoh: indeed header is define in the report action by the field style19:41
JamesPharaohcedk: so is there an easy way to have completely different reports for different companies in the same system?19:43
JamesPharaohcedk: i guess i could probably put some conditionals in there or something but that will make the document more complicated19:43
cedkJamesPharaoh: not without customisation19:43
JamesPharaohcedk: ok, so i guess the conditionals in the document are the way to go then :)19:44
JamesPharaohcedk: thanks19:44
JamesPharaohcedk: actually how can i modify header_A4.odt... do i have to change the copy in /usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/trytond_company-1.8.0-py2.6.egg/trytond/modules/company/header_A4.odt because that doesn't seem ideal, can i override it somehow instead?19:57
cedkJamesPharaoh: you must make report style pointing to an other file20:01
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plantianudono: Hi sorry.  I'm sure we don't use accrual accounting but I don't know if it matters with your question because we are not incorporated in any form.20:12
udonoplantian: ok, thanks!20:12
udonoplantian: so you use cash accounting?20:13
udonoplantian: you pay taxes when you earn money, not when you write the invoice?20:13
cedkudono: there is both method for tax report and also for accounting report20:14
cedkudono: but I think cash method is generaly used for tax report20:14
plantianudono: Right, let me double check.20:15
udonocedk: where is 'there'?20:15
plantiancedk: You mean two different methods could be potentially chosen for reporting income for tax purposes versus sending reports to investors and public for corporation right ?20:17
cedkudono: I guess cach method exists in many countries20:17
cedkplantian: yes20:18
plantianI think cash method is considered inferior not because of tax collection loopholes but because it makes running your business more difficult once it grows beyond a certain size.20:18
cedkplantian: also it doesn't give a good picture of your company20:20
cedkplantian: I think it is only useful for starting business20:20
udonocedk: yes, in Germany we have cash-based and accrual-based on VAT and additionally on the structure of the income/balance reports. Both can be mixed.20:22
cedkudono: by the way, I think we can manage it in Tryton by using reconciliation date20:23
udonocedk: not for partially paid invoices :-(20:24
udonocedk: but for Journal entries on account Receivables/Payable and their conterpart payings.20:25
cedkudono: how can you manage partial payment20:26
cedkudono: you can not know how much for taxes you received20:27
udonocedk: we need some kind of payment taxes.20:27
udonocedk: these are taxes which will apply on each payment of an invoice20:28
udonocedk: in Germany it is usual, when the payment is e.g. 1/3 of the total amount, then the tax you earn is 1/3 of all invoiced taxes.20:29
cedkudono: ok but you don't know which taxes20:30
cedkudono: if you got different taxes on the invoice for different rate20:30
udonocedk: it is 1/3 of all invoiced taxes...20:31
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cedkudono: by the way, I think that if a company is ready to get some sort of ERP, it has enough maturity to use accrual accounting20:32
udonofrom the above example20:32
cedkudono: then you will start to have rounding issue20:32
cedkudono: this makes thing really complicated20:32
udonocedk: yes, true :-)20:33
udonocedk: but tryton is not an ERP, it is an application platform for...20:33
cedkudono: don't care how you named it20:34
cedkudono: it is not for single man company20:34
cedkudono: or at least with enough good practice to use accrual accounting20:34
cedkudono: last thing, we will not modify (complexify) the current accounting module to manage this method20:36
udonocedk: good to know20:38
cedkudono: Tryton is about good practice so everybody knows that cash method is bad :-)20:41
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kingsnakehello good evening20:43
kingsnakei have a question regarding importing default base data20:43
udonokingsnake: Welcome! Just ask.20:44
kingsnakeWhen i try to change imported data i get the following message: You are not allowed to delete this record.20:44
kingsnakei actually want to allow this20:44
kingsnakeIt follows with: This record is part of the base configuration.20:45
udonokingsnake: which kind of data you are talking about?20:47
kingsnakeData i import when installing a module20:47
udonokingsnake: which exactly? Imported by csv, proteus, xmlrpc, ...?20:48
udonokingsnake: or do you mean data which is introduced by the module itself?20:48
kingsnakeIn __tryton__.py under 'xml' i specifiy import_data.xml20:48
kingsnakeyea20:48
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udonokingsnake: got it20:49
plantiancedk: It is difficult to switch and difficult/expensive to maintain depending on the business. I agree that it is better practice though.20:49
udonokingsnake: all data which comes from the module is not editable from userside. It is inserted by user id 0 (zero) which is the root system user.20:50
kingsnakeAha, thanks for explaining.20:50
udonokingsnake: but Iam unsure if you can tweak the xml... cedk, you know?20:50
kingsnakeSorry for my IRC noobiness, but how do i direct messages to someone in public chat?20:51
udonokingsnake: just type the name of the user. Tab key is your friend. If you want pivat chat, just doubleclick on the nickname.20:52
kingsnakeudono, ah thanks20:53
udonokingsnake: works :-)20:53
cedkxml file in module is not the good way to import configuration data20:57
cedkbest way is to write a script (with proetus)20:57
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hoRnhi all20:58
udonocedk: BTW cash-accounting is the usual accounting-method in Germany, Austria and Swiss for not incorporated enterprises with < 500.000 EUR or 1.000.000 CHF. These companies seems neither small nor is cash-accounting attributed bad in these countries :-P21:01
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hoRni'm still doing a little extension for collecting nonreferenced outgoing shipments and create account_invoice_lines_standalone from that moves. is there already a solution to collect this shipments?21:03
kingsnakecedk, That's what i did before actually... But the xml file in module import is actually very convenient for what i'm using it for.21:05
hoRnho - i only read the last message from udono - cash-accounting means 'Istbesteuerung'? If so - this module is the best way to blow up the users of tryton in germany21:05
cedkudono: too bad21:06
udonocedk: Yes, true.21:06
plantianhoRn: "blow up the users", ha do you mean grow the user base?21:07
cedkudono: you should have precise description of the requirement because this method is not univocal21:07
hoRnplantian: yes - bad expression? ;)21:08
plantianhoRn: Haha I'm not sure. In America when we read "blow up" we don't think about balloons; we think about bombs. I think it is a cultural problem we have.21:09
cedkudono: by the way, I think cash accounting is more difficult to manage so it is strange that small company prefers it21:11
hoRnplantian: my english is a mixture from listening hip hop, reading programmers posts in the internet and talking english with non anglo-american people :]21:13
cedkudono: and at the end you pay the same amount of taxes :-)21:13
hoRnplantian: the last mostly a little bit trunken21:13
hoRncedk: but you hav to pay the taxes if you have received the payment - not if you have sent a invoice21:16
udonocedk: yes, on the end everything all pay the same taxes :-)21:25
udonocedk: cash accounting is very easy to manage, just take a three column table and name column 1 Income and column 2 Expense and column 3 Tax. That's it.21:27
udonocedk: The real problem is double-entry accounting with the cash-based method and a way to change the method between the fiscal years.21:28
udonocedk: but you are right, we need a precise description of the requirements. This I am actually working out.21:31
hoRnudono: if  I'm done with my actual project I would work in this - but  don't know the fiscal requirements21:35
hoRnudono: I need it for my own company because < 500.000 - what a shame21:36
udonohoRn: Thanks21:36
hoRnhttp://pastie.org/1526112 - that seems a brute way to get all shipments without a reference to invoice_line_standalone21:37
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cedkhoRn: it is not correct22:44
hoRnno - teh account is wrong and many more22:44
cedkhoRn: you must search for moves that are not linked to a sale line22:44
hoRncedk: that was really quick and dirty - every move linked to a sale line has a reference22:46
cedkhoRn: by the way, I would not do that this way22:47
hoRncedk: how you would do that?22:47
cedkhoRn: if I understand well what you want to do is to create a invoice line for every outgoing move that is not managed by a sale order22:48
hoRncedk: yes22:48
hoRncedk: the company has contracts - so no sale is necessary22:48
cedkhoRn: I will override create/write method of stock.move and when the state change to done then create the line and keep a link to it22:50
cedkhoRn: of course, you must raise an error message if you don't have every information like the party etc.22:50
hoRncedk: but which action creates the move?22:51
cedkhoRn: but if I was in charge of modeling this, I will keep the sale workflow22:51
cedkhoRn: the create or write method22:52
hoRncedk: the create/write of move?22:52
cedkhoRn: yes22:53
cedkhoRn: but as I said for me it is not a good design (but still better than yours)22:54
cedkhoRn: you still have problem if someone delete the invoice line22:54
hoRncedk: ;(22:54
cedkhoRn: the best way is to keep using sale22:55
hoRncedk: if he delete the invoice_line he is unemployed after22:55
cedkhoRn: people can make mistake22:55
hoRncedk: not in this company - is manchester of the first 19th22:57
hoRncedk: my problem is - the are doing deliveries all the day - but theay are writing invoices once a week22:58
cedkhoRn: if nobody makes mistake then they don't need of business software ;-)22:58
cedkhoRn: you should write a module sale_invoice_line_standalone22:59
hoRncedk: i was checking out the invoice_methods22:59
cedkhoRn: like the purchase_invoice_line_standalon22:59
cedkhoRn: sale and purchase module are very similar so it should be not diffifcult22:59
cedkhoRn: and it could be part of the base modules22:59
hoRncedk: i will do so - but i need a fast solution tomorrow22:59
hoRncedk: since monday tryton is the base of this company ;)23:00
cedkhoRn: you can just override the method create_invoice of sale23:01
cedkhoRn: and do the same as in purchase_invoice_line_standalone23:01
cedkhoRn: http://hg.tryton.org/modules/purchase_invoice_line_standalone/file/4651af65e017/purchase.py#l2623:02
cedkhoRn: and later you improve it to manage exception etc.23:02
hoRncedk: but i will shorten the way to a invoice. there is finally no sale at all - one contract a year23:03
cedkhoRn: like you want23:04
hoRncedk: finally it could be, that my project is a blueprint for service production23:05
hoRncedk: for example this company has shipments_in without payments23:05
hoRncedk: they are gettin products for finishing23:06
hoRncedk: since monday 10 people is working in tryton and they don't kill me23:07
hoRncedk: without any training23:07
hoRncedk: if the first stress is over - i will do a revision of the stuff i wrote and check the code for improvements23:09
cedkhoRn: for sure, it is never finished :-)23:10
hoRncedk: but it's a nice framework -respect23:14
hoRncedk: there are some issues with the client in win7 for example - i will do some contributions if i have the time23:16
cedkhoRn: report at least issue on roundup23:16
hoRncedk: I'll do with a solution - the hight of the client sometimes is to high23:18
hoRncedk: so the user needs to scroll to see the actionbuttons23:19
cedkhoRn: should be fixed in trunk23:20
hoRncedk: I'll will give it a look soon - and contributing something.23:22
hoRncedk: but contributing for me is a pitty - you have seen it ;)23:23
cedkhoRn: what is the problem?23:25
hoRncedk: I'm stressed with 2 projects at one time23:26
hoRncedk: we are doing a tryton implemation and a big website at the same time23:27
cedkhoRn: ok ask if there is something you don't understand with codereview etc.23:28
hoRncedk: projekte.grasbauer.com/ - seems easy but has a lot of connections to storages and a lot of usecases we are trying to implement with a userfriendly backend - less buttons - more fun ;)23:30
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cedkhoRn: you do that with which framework?23:32
hoRncedk: our own cms based on ZOPE23:32
hoRncedk: a nice piece of software as well ;)23:37
hoRncedk: like our shopsoftware which needs a connection to tryton23:37
hoRn@all - good night!23:52

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