IRC logs of #tryton for Monday, 2012-12-03 #tryton log beginning Mon Dec 3 00:00:01 CET 2012
Ark_can somebody explain me a fundamental question about WebDAV?01:39
Ark_(one about apache and tryton, a question whether they interfere, a question that I couldn't answer myself from reading the doc/wiki and by googling)01:41
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corrojcm: Do you have by chance a newer build of the tryton client 2.4 you could share? We're having problems with the official 2.4.0 client and I remember you helped us out with a 2.0 build last time.12:37
sisalphello, last week I had to revisit openerp basic modules with a group of economy/management/accounting teachers13:56
sisalpwe noticed aain many problems, one ot them, I think also affects Tryton13:57
sisalpthe point is to fix future operations in the sale order, while they are not under the sales' responsability13:58
sisalpI mean supply / delivery /invoicing consequencies of the sale order13:59
sisalpthe point would to allow some parameters to be changed later, until suggested documents are at least drafted14:00
sisalpam I clear ?14:01
bechamelsisalp: it's hard to think about pratical ideas for improvement if we consideer only generic observation14:10
sharoonthomascorro: There is windows binary for 2.4.1
sisalpbechamel: thank you answering. What should I provide ? List of these parameters ?14:11
bechamelsisalp: personaly I like to have an actual use-case14:12
sisalpbechamel: you mean describe it as a story ?14:13
corrosharoonthomas: Thank you, but I forgot to mention that I'm looking for a mac client. The current official one hangs on various views.14:13
bechamelsisalp: my first reaction was: "just let salesman create draft orders and then leave the final parameter setting to a manager" but I'm not sure it is relevant for ou14:14
sharoonthomascorro: there are some instructions here
sisalpbechamel: if you don't validate the order, you don't use the workflow, it's a pity14:15
bechamelsisalp: yes, this helps to focus on the needs14:16
corrosharoonthomas: Thanks14:16
sisalpthe idea is : the sale man requests a specific purchase to fulfill the SO14:16
bechamelsisalp: I mean that the manager finalize the order then validate it (and the workflow runs normaly)14:17
sisalp2 tryton generates a purchase request14:17
sisalp3 the purchaser decides not to buy but to get it from stock14:17
sisalp4 he updates the SO so it is delivered from stock14:18
sisalpI can do the same with invoices on order or on shipments14:18
sisalpbechamel, I disagree, the manager doesn't know more until the purchase order is worked out14:19
sisalpkeeping the SO as draft prevents invoicing too14:20
sisalpbechamel: consider an SO can be delivered weeks later14:22
bechamelsisalp: it was not a real proposition, but to explain you that it is difficult to answer such a large question without context14:22
sisalpbechamel: keeping the SO draft is just a way to say : do it manually because Tryton cannot do it14:23
sharoonthomascorro: do let me know if it goes well, i remember trying it once before and it did not work.14:23
sharoonthomascorro: the instructions are a bit old, would be nice if you update it too14:24
sisalpbechamel: what kind of context would help ?14:25
sisalpbechamel: I just think that if the company has more than one employee, today situation doesn't make sens14:26
bechamelsisalp: mys first question is why "the sale man requests a specific purchase" ?14:26
sisalpbechamel: because he can14:26
sisalpsales are not mesured on stock levels14:27
sisalpthe higher it is the better for them14:27
bechamelsisalp: and more importantly how does he "request a purchase"? there are no such think on the sale order14:28
sisalpbechamel: but if you hide this parameter to sales, which would be better, then the problem has no solution14:28
bechamelsisalp: which parameter ?14:30
sisalpbechamel: same for invoice. The sales is not in charge of deciding whether the customer will be invoiced based on the order or on the shipment14:30
sisalpbechamel: I check for the parameter14:30
sisalpbechamel: on stock / on order is no longer shown, may be part of my suggestion is already in ;-)14:36
bechamelsisalp: :)14:37
bechamelsisalp: and maybe you also didn't see that you can define default value for sale and shipment method (On Order Processed / On chipment Sent/ manualy) in Sale > Configuration > Sale configuration14:39
sisalpbechamel: the point is to allow modification afterwards14:39
bechamelsisalp: those are just default values for the sale, they can be changed on the sale14:41
sisalpbechamel: I made the following : I did a new sale order, validate and process. I cannot change shipment/invoicing method after this14:42
bechamelsisalp: I agree that the current behaviour is not forgiving to the user :)14:47
sisalpbechamel: the point is not to forgive a generic user, but the "right" user14:48
sisalpmoves and invoice are still draft, I should be able to modify SO parameters and ask Tryton to calculate new ones14:49
sisalpwhen either invoice or moves are validated, then I understand the SO cannot be modified14:49
bechamelsisalp: this what I wanted to say by "forgiving": if the user make a mistake he is stuck14:50
sisalpbechamel: I disagree: sales user is not equivalent to stock management user and accountant.14:51
sisalpbechamel: we can be hard with the one who is in charge of, not with those who are not14:52
sisalpbechamel : the sale man doesn't make a mistake if he indicates the best values he can guess14:53
sisalpbecause he has no idea of the decisions other are in charge of later.14:53
sisalpbechamel: does it sound reasonable ?14:54
sisalpI understand Tryton is far better than OE on this point, but still not 100% natural14:55
sisalpHello all, I would be interested in hearing from others if I'm the only one to feel this way14:59
sisalpfrom sale order, I could cancel the draft invoice, I had to go to scck management to cancel the move15:02
sisalpthen it didn't help, I cannot reprocess the order15:03
bechamelsisalp: yes, I think this is a problem15:04
sisalpI did it on demo database as admin15:05
yangoonsisalp: I agree that those restrictions are too early in the workflow15:06
yangoonit would be of general help to have a common and documented worklflow of the sales process15:06
bechamelactually before this it was possible to cancel a sale with a shipment or an invoice exception, but there are no issue associated to the changeset so I don't know what it solve exactly15:21
rmusomething that bugs me in purchase:16:38
rmui enter a draft purchase16:38
rmuthen make "request for quotation", send this to supplier16:39
rmusupplier gives price16:39
rmuthen i have to set purchase back to draft in order to enter the price16:39
chripsI'm having trouble pulling module with hg 'pull -u' does not pull the modules and npull is unrecognized (depreciated?)16:54
chripsI can't find any reference to npull anywhere16:54
rmuchrips: hgnested17:17
cedksisalp: I don't see what is the problem18:07
cedksisalp: the methods stored on the sale are the one the company decide to work with18:08
cedksisalp: I don't see what you want to change18:09
bechamelcedk: why this changeset hide the cancel button when there is a shipment/invoice exception: ?18:10
cedkbechamel: because you have to run the wizard for that18:11
bechamelcedk: which one? "handle invoice/shipment exception"?18:13
bechamelcedk: sorry it's obvoously "Create return sale"18:14
cedkbechamel: yes18:14
cedkbechamel: if you have just one of 2 invoices cancel, you will not cancel the sale18:14
bechamelcedk: I think the wizard should be shown as a button, beside the  "handle invoice/shipment exception"18:15
cedkbechamel: don't understand18:17
bechamelcedk: there is an affordance problem, in this sitation the user as two choice: 1) fix the exception 2) cancel everything18:18
bechameland he only see 1)18:19
cedkbechamel: false, he can not cancel everything18:19
cedkbechamel: you can not cancel something validated, you just finish it with exception18:20
bechamelcedk: creating the return sale is what for you ?18:20
bechamelcedk: you play with words to avoid answering the questions, like a politician18:21
cedkbechamel: what is the problem ?????18:21
bechamelcedk: the fact that when an (invoice/shipment) exception appears the user as two option, but he sees only one button18:22
cedkbechamel: he has only 1 option !18:23
cedkbechamel: don't try to reintroduce your own bugs18:23
bechamelcedk: you told me that the wizard replace the cancel button18:24
cedkbechamel: no I never said that18:24
bechamel"why this changeset hide the cancel button" -> "because you have to run the wizard for that"18:25
cedkbechamel: read better18:25
bechamelcedk: so if I make a mistake in a sale and confirm it, there is nothing I can do to fix the situation ?18:26
cedkbechamel: run the wizard18:26
cedkbechamel: you have to keep track that you make a mistake18:26
bechamelcedk: ok then, what if I (the salesman) realize my mistake when an exception is triggerded by the warehouse guy or by the financial guy ?18:28
cedkbechamel: what exception ?18:28
cedkthis afternoon, you just talked whithout any real scenario, it is just a lost of time18:29
bechamelcedk: the cause of the exception is not relevant, they appear so they must be handled18:29
cedkbechamel: which exception is not handled ?18:29
bechamelcedk: example a supplier stop suppliyng a product18:30
cedkbechamel: if you don't have any example, just shut up18:30
cedkbechamel: so cancel the shipment18:30
bechamelcedk: and I leave the sale like that ?18:30
cedkbechamel: run the fucking wizard !!!!!!!!!18:30
cedkbechamel: I stop, run a recent Tryton before asking stupid question18:31
bechamelcedk: so we agree that we may have one situation where a shipment as been cancelled that can arize from two circumstance 1) the saleman made a mistake 2) the supplier stopped to supply a product18:33
bechamelcedk: I there is a wizard, all my questions are about UI and affordance18:34
bechamels/I there/I know there/18:34
sisalpcedk: sisalp: the methods stored on the sale are the one the company decide to work with : this is what is under question18:43
sisalpcedk: I disagree18:43
sisalpczdk: the business logic is unconsistent18:44
cedksisalp: the method are part of the sale as it is what the customer agree to work with18:44
cedksisalp: if you don't want salemen to change it, just make it readonly18:45
sisalpcedk: I think you don't want to understand do you ?18:47
sisalpcedk: is ithere a hidden technical problem that makes it impossible to sort responsabilities correctly in the workflow ?18:48
sisalpcedk: and we don't consider information the customer knows. don't make it confuse18:49
cedksisalp: I don't see what you are talking about18:54
cedksisalp: invoice and shipment method are known by the customer18:54
sisalpcedk: why ?18:55
sisalpcedk: I mean why at order time ?18:55
cedksisalp: it is part of the sale contract: the customer has to know if he has to pay before being delivery or not18:56
cedksisalp: and as a customer, I could not agree about paying before being delivery18:56
cedkfor example18:57
sisalpcedk: it is more complex than this18:58
sisalpcedk: but I now understand what you meant18:58
cedksisalp: but if you consider that choosing the right method must be done by someone else than the salemen, then you can still create a new state in the workflow for that19:00
cedksisalp: but it is clear that it is something that must not change once validated19:00
sisalpit's not so "clear"19:00
sisalpcedk: and I don't understand if it is a technical consideration or a business practice19:02
cedksisalp: it is part of the contract19:02
cedksisalp: and also how will you manage the change between "shipment on invoice paid" and "pay on delivery"19:07
sisalpcedk: creating other states on sale order is not so clear.19:10
sisalpcedk: why do you choose this example in particular ?19:11
cedksisalp: because it create just a shipment and no invoice vs no shipment and a invoice19:12
sisalpcedk: if I follow your idea "it is part of the contract" if is supposed to be added in the sale order document, isn't it ?19:12
cedksisalp: why not but most of the time it is on the general sale clause of the company19:13
sisalpcedk: rg your last answer: yes you are back to the beginning19:13
sisalpcedk: the idea was : change this parameter and get Tryton recalculate19:14
sisalpcedk : if previous documents don't have been edited ot validated19:14
sisalpI understand better now. For me it is often dependent on the customer and sometimes on the product19:15
cedksisalp: too complex, better to cancel and recreate a new one because in real life it is was you are doing: changing the sale condition so customer has to validate again19:16
sisalp so in case we had more complex conditions to check, we would have to add new states to SO so checks and changes are done before it's validation.19:22
sisalpasking all required people (logistic and accountant) to work on sale order validation process19:23
sisalpthis is a workable solution I think19:23
sisalpin consequence, purchases and manufacturing will be anticipated on a forecast, so sale order can be validated at the latest moment19:25
cedksisalp: but I really don't understand your scenario19:53
cedksisalp: I don't see what you want to manage19:53
sisalpcedk: the need is to let all users make their job when they have to, not at sale order time, which can be weeks ago.19:57
sisalpas an example : customers who open an account get credit, others have to pay before shipment19:58
sisalpa customer orders in june for delivery in september. In september if his account is open he gets credit, else he has to pay19:59
cedksisalp: what you describe is a new method20:00
cedksisalp: and the decision is not the job of the stock manager nor the accountant20:01
cedksisalp: you have to store this on the party20:01
sisalpof cource in b2c, when you sell goods which are ready to ship, a standard workflow based on general conditions is ok20:01
sisalpwhether I stock or not the information, I cannot adapt after the order is validated20:02
sisalpbasically the order is made in june, but customer situation has changed before the order is physically processed.20:03
sisalpthe decision may be stock manager and accountant or not, the question about the periode of time where the initial choice can be modified.20:06
sisalpnevertheless, I understand a new methode could be defined, not bad20:07
sisalpit would anticipate different cases20:08
sisalpelse the users will choose the most permissive process in all cases, then adequation is decided manually, which makes sens20:08
cedksisalp: also your example, remeber me the prototype of sale_credit module20:09

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