IRC logs of #tryton for Saturday, 2009-01-17 #tryton log beginning Sat Jan 17 00:00:01 CET 2009
vengfulsquirrelX0d_of_N0d: You could remove a 80GB drive and that would invalidate like 64 products. (assuming all of them existed)00:00
vengfulsquirrelThis definately is going to take some careful navigation and running the numbers.00:00
X0d_of_N0dright, I was just wanting ot make sure that you're not suggesting that we don't propigate changes00:00
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vengfulsquirrelYeah I'm a little concerned about changes to nested subassembly's revisions that alter the parent product but the revision does not reflect this.00:01
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: right00:01
vengfulsquirrelAnytime we need to refer to a bom for a long period we need to store the parent revision and all nested revisions.00:02
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: right00:02
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: I think a bom should always just by default refer to the latest version of the bom. We'd know based on active dates which previous revisions people have.00:03
vengfulsquirrelBy forcing the configurator to live and work in the production management section we could just add a produceable flag and a bom link to products and that's the only change to the entire system.00:03
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: producable flag and bom_id field00:04
bechamelmaybe it should be usefull to introduce something like bom role : several permutale boms will share the same role, and a bom is not a list of product/qty but a list of role, if I have a new product I only add another bom to the existing role00:05
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: you're talking about configurable boms?00:06
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bechamelyes, my point of view is that all boms should be configurable (so configurable is implicit)00:07
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: I think we're running into another terminology problem00:08
bechameland  it's not the bom which is configurable it's the production order00:08
bechamelX0d_of_N0d: yes maybe00:08
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: when something is produced we need to be able to trace back and figure out exactly what bom was used to build it00:09
bechamelI will wait for the relational schema before disturbing you further :)00:09
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: how would that be stored00:09
bechamelX0d_of_N0d: on the production order00:09
X0d_of_N0dyeah.. pictures would probably help00:09
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: right, but how on the production order? do we store a part number that has a static bom attached to it? if so do we generate new part numbers for every revision (I don't like that)?00:10
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: do we store bom+config?00:10
bechamelfor me a bom is like a recipe but you can shop some ingredient instead of cocking them, and you decide this when you create the meal and i will change from day to day. but the recipe on the book is always the same00:11
bechamelthe productio order store the boms that have been chosen accross all the available boms00:13
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: so there'd be a bom for each production order???00:14
bechamelX0d_of_N0d: a link/reference to the existing bom00:15
bechamelX0d_of_N0d: or several links to existing boms00:16
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X0d_of_N0dbechamel: the last thing I got from you was "the productio order store..."00:20
bechamelX0d_of_N0d: I said that the product order will store a link/reference to the existing bom00:21
bechamelor several links to existing boms00:21
X0d_of_N0dand if you configure a bom it checks for an existing bom with that configuration or creates a new one?00:23
X0d_of_N0dor do you create a new bom for each configuration?00:23
bechamelthe idea is to avoid to create a new bom for a new configuration00:24
bechamelexample for the pizza, if i want to manage 3 solution: 1) buy the pizza 2) buy some pizza bread and tomato 3) create the pizza bread from flour etc and buy the tomato. (yeah very simple pizza with only tomato). so the pizza role will contains two boms: one with one product (finished pizza) one with two product (tomato, and bread), the bread role will contains two bom: one who will contains flour, water, etc  and the other with only the00:28
bechamelfinished bead product00:28
bechamelbut there is still a problem because this mix products and bom00:29
vengfulsquirrelhmm yeah i'm confused00:33
bechamelvengfulsquirrel: bread is the correct word ?00:34
bechamelbetter: is bread the correct word ?00:34
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: s/bread/crust/00:35
bechamelX0d_of_N0d: yes of course, like "cheesy crust" at pizza hut :D00:37
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: so a pizza bom would contain two lines toppings & crust (since it's all made at the same time in a simple process it would be shrunk into one, but for our uses we'll continue anyway)...00:37
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: then crust would contain a bm for flower,water, ,egg, salt, etc..00:38
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: or cheese, flour, egg, water, etc00:39
bechamelthe idea is not to use bom has lines but roles, so a pizza bom contain two role toppings and crust00:41
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: that's a bom00:41
bechameland there would be two bom for the crust role one with flour, egg, water and one with a ready crust from the supplier00:42
bechamel... and one with flour, egg, water and cheese (as long a one consider that a crust with cheese and crust without are permutale)00:43
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: but that's what a bom would be, a list of other boms or products00:44
X0d_of_N0dwhich is why it makes sense to link boms to products and use products...00:44
vengfulsquirrelHey I don't think this really is a ER diagram but its a diagram, it also is pretty confusing at first glance:
bechamela bom is list of role or product00:44
X0d_of_N0dbechamel: that's what a bom is00:45
vengfulsquirrelcrows feet kind of come out weird in Dia00:45
bechamelvengfulsquirrel: shouldn't the link between bom line and product be reversed ?00:47
vengfulsquirrelbut what i was saying earlier is that a configurable bom doesn't actually report to a specific product, it only produces boms for products00:47
vengfulsquirrelbechamel: No because a BOM Line only refers to a single product.  But many BOM Lines can refer to the same product.00:48
vengfulsquirrelAs far as I know.00:48
bechamelno sorry, I'm wrong00:48
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: so bom's would know which product they're linked to, or would products know which bom they're linked to?00:49
vengfulsquirrelProbably the bom would hold the link00:53
vengfulsquirrelThe bom could have for_product_id or whatever, and a product would have a produceable flag.00:54
cedkI don't understand how the configurable stuff must work ?00:55
cedkand I think that what you try to do by being able to switch one product in a BOM, can be done by phatom BOM00:57
vengfulsquirrelWell we are still working that out.  I'm proposing to just make configurations and propagate them into products using the configurable BOM as a template.00:58
vengfulsquirrelcedk: Phantom BOM has multiple definitions.  From what I've read it merely means a subassembly that is used on the production line but cannot be stocked.00:58
vengfulsquirrelSo its more used to communicate between workcenters via workorders.00:59
cedkvengfulsquirrel: yes, so for the disk example, you create as many phatom BOMs as you have different disk00:59
cedkso the system will choose one depending of the availability of the product01:00
vengfulsquirrelExcept disks are stocked and a customer doesn't want different sized disks, they want a specific sized disk.01:00
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: but one bom could be used for multiple products, so the link needs to go the other way01:00
cedkvengfulsquirrel: it is just a matter of configuration, you create a phatom BOMs for disk of 250Go01:01
vengfulsquirrelX0d_of_N0d: No one bom cannot be used for multiple products, the bom is fixed to that specific product.01:01
vengfulsquirrelX0d_of_N0d: One configurable bom can be used to configure the bom of multiple products.01:01
cedkI still don't understand the configurable BOM01:02
cedkfor me a phatom BOM is just a BOM that is not linked to any product01:04
cedkand the BOM lines can be linked to a product or a phatom BOM01:04
X0d_of_N0dcedk: that's not the definition of it01:04
cedklike that we introduced choice in BOM lines01:04
cedkX0d_of_N0d: I think it is the right things01:05
X0d_of_N0da phantom bom is an item that is used immediately, shared between multiple boms, or impossible to stock01:06
X0d_of_N0dcedk: but that's not the correct use of the terminology01:06
cedkX0d_of_N0d: that is what I say, and here I explain how to use it to introduce choice in BOM, but it can be also used to shared some common part between different BOMs01:07
X0d_of_N0dcedk: if we want to create a bom that's like you describe then it's called a configurable bom01:07
X0d_of_N0dactually it'd be a configurator01:07
X0d_of_N0dI think01:07
cedkX0d_of_N0d: I don't care about the name, but for me the both are the same01:07
X0d_of_N0dcedk: ok...yeah, sorry, the terminology thing has been kind of a pain01:07
cedkor at least must be the same, because it will be more powerfull01:08
X0d_of_N0dI was saying that all the boms should be structured the same in the database, but called different things depending on their function01:08
X0d_of_N0dand the name determines how they are used01:08
X0d_of_N0derr type01:09
cedkif you think that it is your configurable BOM, so I think that yo must merge the configurable BOM with BOM01:09
vengfulsquirrela phantom bom will just move the logic somewhere else.. and then THAT will need to be configured01:09
cedkit is simple, BOM linked to output products are normal BOM, otherwise it is phantom01:10
vengfulsquirreloutput products?01:10
cedkas bechamel said a BOM must be able to produce more than one product01:11
cedkit will be more generic and more powerfull01:11
cedklike that you can handle trash product or having a production that split one product into two, etc...01:13
cedkone thing that I don't how to handle it, it is when there is choice in the BOM01:14
vengfulsquirrelokay but i think you'll need a dominate product01:14
cedkvengfulsquirrel: simply a list of product that are sorted01:15
vengfulsquirreland the other outputs will be of less importance than the dominant product01:15
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: if you have that then you might as well have a product and a list of side-effects or something01:15
vengfulsquirrelyeah that's what i mean01:15
cedkvengfulsquirrel: that have a tag, that says it is a principal product or a trash01:15
vengfulsquirrelif you split you have to just make two boms i think that's not common enough to create a system to handle01:15
cedkvengfulsquirrel: it is better to make a generic system that allow n inputs and m outputs01:16
X0d_of_N0dok, I'm gonna go take a walk and get some soda01:17
vengfulsquirrelIts adding complexity I think that is unnecessary01:17
cedkand not separate output, just flag principals01:17
vengfulsquirrelbut then multiple products have to share boms01:17
vengfulsquirreland planning is more complex01:18
cedkvengfulsquirrel: this one of the principal critism of the OpenERP modelisation01:18
bechamelvengfulsquirrel: if we don't plan this now it will be impossible to do later01:18
cedkvengfulsquirrel: you can have any way, many BOM for the same product01:19
bechamelcedk: did you see wait I said about bom role ?01:19
cedkbechamel: I did not understand01:19
vengfulsquirrelokay well i'll have to keep thinking about the multiple outputs maybe you are right01:21
cedkfor me there is still: how to handle choice in production?01:21
vengfulsquirrelyou are both probably more experienced than me with that regard01:21
vengfulsquirrelcedk: configurable boms01:21
bechamelcedk: role is to handle choice actualy01:21
cedkis the system make the best choice or let the user choice01:21
vengfulsquirrelThere will be no choice, you will have to create a product for every configuration that you need to make.01:22
cedkvengfulsquirrel: not with phatom BOMs01:22
vengfulsquirrelA user orders a specific product so configuration is only done to create products.01:22
cedkvengfulsquirrel: except if you have similar product that you can choice in the production01:23
vengfulsquirrelI do not understand your interpretation of phantom BOMs, is it the same as configurable bom lines except with a product ?01:23
vengfulsquirrelYou mean product substitutes?01:23
cedkvengfulsquirrel: like many harddisk of 200Go01:23
cedkvengfulsquirrel: yes01:23
vengfulsquirrelThat's something different than a phantom BOM.01:24
cedkbut I don't make different model for BOM and phantom BOM01:24
cedkvengfulsquirrel: no, it is the same01:24
cedkvengfulsquirrel: it is just a step in the production01:24
bechamelit's a generalisation of phantom bom01:24
vengfulsquirrelNo because a phantom bom cannot be stocked.01:24
vengfulsquirrelYou are saying substitute a stockable product with another stockable product.01:25
cedkphantom means, it doesn't produce a real product01:25
vengfulsquirrelThen start production.01:25
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: a phantom bom could potentially be stocked, it just isn't usually01:25
X0d_of_N0dcedk: it doesn't produce a sellable product01:25
cedkX0d_of_N0d: if you want01:25
vengfulsquirrelOkay ha can we call it product substitutes though.  Its really you have 1 slot put anything in it.01:25
cedkfor me, it is a meta information01:26
X0d_of_N0dthe term phantom bom is used in a bunch of different ways meaning lots of things, perhaps we need to define some other terms so we can all be on the same page?01:26
vengfulsquirrelA configurable bom could say choose 2 of there 10 or choose 0 or more of these 10.01:26
vengfulsquirrel*of these 1001:26
cedkvengfulsquirrel: for me it is too complicate01:26
vengfulsquirrelNot if its pre-product creation.01:27
cedkvengfulsquirrel: did you have an example of a product that in which you can substitue a product by two others ?01:27
cedkand for me the name phantom is the right name01:27
X0d_of_N0dcedk: I have an example01:28
vengfulsquirrelWhen assembling a computer system: Choose 0 or more drives: CDROM, 80 GB Drive, 160 GB Drive, DVD Drive01:28
X0d_of_N0dcedk: say you build computers. A computer could have multiple processors, multiple different sizes and quantities of ram, multiple harddrive options, etc01:28
vengfulsquirrelYour product substitute idea would be there are 10 brands of 80 GB Drive and that is chosen at production time.01:28
cedkvengfulsquirrel: this will not produce the same product01:29
vengfulsquirrelSo we are talking about two different problems.01:29
vengfulsquirrelYeah it won't produce the same product.01:29
vengfulsquirrelBut its BOM will be created from a configurable BOM01:29
cedkvengfulsquirrel: you will not sell a computer without CDROM at the same price than with one01:29
vengfulsquirrelYes I agree01:29
cedkvengfulsquirrel: how to encode this in the sale order ?01:30
X0d_of_N0dcedk: right, but if you change the motherboard that you sell for one computer, you'd want to change it on all the computers that are similar01:30
cedkX0d_of_N0d: i talk about substitution, because you are out of stock for one by example01:31
vengfulsquirrelYeah that is a different use-case though which we haven't addressed but apparently is needed.01:31
vengfulsquirrelSo that feature needs to be added.01:31
cedkX0d_of_N0d: substitution will not change the price of the product because you consider the products as the same01:31
vengfulsquirrelYeah we might need another Production Order State and some more relations to handle that situation.01:32
cedkfor you computer "on demand", I think what you need is a computer configuration, that will create the product and the associated BOM01:33
X0d_of_N0dcedk: no, that's why I was suggesting connecting the bom to the product template and the configuration to the product01:33
vengfulsquirrelSo that substitutes can be selected before the production order changed to assigned.01:33
X0d_of_N0dcedk: but if the master bom changes you have to change anyhting that shares that bom01:33
cedkvengfulsquirrel: yes01:34
cedkX0d_of_N0d: don't understand01:34
vengfulsquirrelcedk: Yeah that's what I am saying a Configurator uses a Configurable BOM to create many products and their associated BOMs.01:34
cedkvengfulsquirrel: I don't think it must be part of the base production01:35
vengfulsquirrelYeah that is also fine we can do production_bom_configurable as a sub module.01:35
cedkvengfulsquirrel: because it will be used by salers01:35
vengfulsquirreland production_bom_substitutes01:36
X0d_of_N0dcedk: s/salers/sellers/01:36
cedkvengfulsquirrel: this object must be able to find if there is not already the same product01:36
vengfulsquirrelThe configurator ?01:36
cedkvengfulsquirrel: yes01:36
vengfulsquirrelYeah it will be very complex, I'm not sure if we could put it in New Sale Line to help select a product but that would be nic.e01:37
cedkvengfulsquirrel: or it can be a object that create all the possibilities01:37
vengfulsquirrelYeah people might not want that because it will pollute their product db01:37
cedkvengfulsquirrel: the only problem will be to create a product name that is still meanful01:37
vengfulsquirrelI have to take a break for a bit though, and its probably pretty late there so maybe we could continue this discussion this weekend.  I might try to whip up some better flows and diagrams.01:38
vengfulsquirrelcedk: Yeah it might have to nest the configuration options01:38
X0d_of_N0dcedk: when a product is configured the user would put in a product name unless otherwise configured01:38
cedkvengfulsquirrel: yes, or it can be just a wizard. I think it depends of the kind of business01:39
vengfulsquirrelHome Computer,  Power User Computer01:39
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: well things would be configured at each level of the bom...01:39
cedkX0d_of_N0d: yes because there will be the computer01:39
vengfulsquirrelX0d_of_N0d: Yeah we still have to think about the multiple levels I'm worried about how that will work.01:40
cedkvengfulsquirrel: especially when there is choice01:40
vengfulsquirrelX0d_of_N0d: The current plan would be that you would start configuring at the lowest level and configure to the top fixed each BOM.01:40
vengfulsquirrelAnd the revisions, also worried about that.01:40
vengfulsquirrelI just want to make sure we at least know what we need and where it will go ... 'eventually'.01:40
cedkvengfulsquirrel: revision is just for history ?01:41
vengfulsquirrelcedk: Sometimes an older bom might be in use until the newer version gets approved.  Additionally you might want to use a fixed revision during production so that changes don't confuse the crap out of the system.01:41
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: yeah, that's really a mess01:42
cedkvengfulsquirrel: it will be not to difficult to handle this01:42
vengfulsquirrelX0d_of_N0d: So if you could determine you most complicated configurations and maybe remove any company stuff we could use those as examples.01:42
cedkthere is a plan to have the same kind of mecanism for account (with history)01:43
X0d_of_N0dcedk: amd (on bom revs) you might also need to know how a historical item was built01:43
cedkX0d_of_N0d: this will be handle with the moves01:43
X0d_of_N0dcedk: how?01:44
cedkX0d_of_N0d: you will see by production which products was used01:44
cedkX0d_of_N0d: and by the way, you can store the BOM id on the production order01:44
X0d_of_N0dcedk: bom_id and rev01:44
cedkX0d_of_N0d: yes01:45
cedkX0d_of_N0d: and perhaps a list of bom id and rev01:45
vengfulsquirrelWhew ha okay now I really gotta go, but I'll try to document what we discussed, product substitutes, configurator and multiple principal/non-principal outputs01:46
cedkX0d_of_N0d: because if the production use sub-BOM or phantom BOM, you need to have all01:46
vengfulsquirrelyeah the list01:46
cedkvengfulsquirrel: good01:46
X0d_of_N0dvengfulsquirrel: catch you later man01:46
vengfulsquirrelgotta go, be back later, thanks for everyone's time01:46
cedkvengfulsquirrel: you know that there is a log bot on the irc ?01:47
cedkvengfulsquirrel: if you lost something :-)01:47
cedkbechamel: bye01:47
X0d_of_N0dcedk: parent boms should store child bom_ids and revs01:48
bechamelcedk: i was talking to vengfulsquirrel actualy :)01:48
X0d_of_N0dcedk: so if you change a subassembly's rev you'd have to change the parent assembly's rev01:48
cedkX0d_of_N0d: no, BOM doesn't store any information about the current production01:48
cedkX0d_of_N0d: otherwise, it is not possible to introduce choice01:49
cedkX0d_of_N0d: and I don't think that if a child BOM change is rev, you must change the rev of all others01:50
cedkbut for me, it is not yet clear who make the choice: the system or the user or (the system and the user can modify it)01:51
X0d_of_N0dbut if a subassembly changes then the parent needs to change to because the whole thing has to change at ocne01:52
X0d_of_N0dthat's a document control thing....01:53
cedkX0d_of_N0d: what ?01:54
cedkX0d_of_N0d: I don't understand, what is the need to change the parent ?01:54
X0d_of_N0dan assembly is something that all works together, so if a subassembly changes you need to verify that everything still works together01:55
X0d_of_N0dhum... yeah, I dunno01:56
X0d_of_N0dI need a break01:56
cedkX0d_of_N0d: and me I need to sleep :-)01:56
cedkX0d_of_N0d: we will continue this later01:58
X0d_of_N0dcedk: later man01:58
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Timitosmwagner_: hi14:59
mwagner_Timitos: Do you speak German?15:02
Timitosmwagner_: ja. es gibt auch einen deutschen tryton channel #tryton.de15:03
mwagner_Ah okay verstehe..15:03
mwagner_Ich probiere gerade Tryton auf dem Demoserver aus. Ich finde es ist ein sehr gutes Produkt15:04
Timitosschön das zu hören.15:04
mwagner_Was ich fragen wollte: Wenn ich eine Rechnung drucke, wird die auf französisch in OpenOffice geöffnet. Kann man das irgendwie einstellen dass die Rechnungen auf Deutsch erscheinen?15:05
Timitosja, du kannst bei der Party (Partei) die Sprache hinterlegen, in der die Rechnung gedruckt werden soll.15:07
Timitosmwagner_: aber es kann sein, dass du eine neue rechnung erstellen musst, weil die rechnung wenn sie fakturiert wird langfristig so gespeichert wird, wie sie erstellt worden ist.15:07
mwagner_Das probiere ich mal aus15:08
mwagner_Funktioniert ohne dass ich eine neue Rechnung erstellen musste. Tryton gefällt mir immer besser15:09
Timitosaber grundsätzlich sind alle reports ebenfalls bereits in deutsch übersetzt. die deutsche übersetzung von tryton ist vollständig und wird laufend aktualisiert.15:10
cedkis it possible to speak in english, like that everybody can participate to the talk15:10
mwagner_I was just asking on how to print invoices in German. I would also like to compliment you on the good work15:11
cedkmwagner_: you're welcome15:12
cedkand the printing language is choosen with the party language15:13
mwagner_I have tried that - works very well.15:13
cedkperhaps the fail back, if there is no language must be the language of the company and not en_US15:13
Timitoscedk: yes. but i am not sure if everybody will create an custom english report and then translate it to the companies language.15:16
cedkTimitos: it doesn't change anythings15:18
Timitoscedk: yes15:18
cedkand there is still the number formating15:20
Timitosyes. you are right.15:21
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CIA-10tryton: C?dric Krier <> default * 1469:7cc373504bf9 trytond/trytond/osv/ Handle join on the same table in order_calc18:28
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mib_bjnbz9cgbeside server improvements and client ones ,there is a change in how modules are coded compared to openerp ?19:39
cedkmib_bjnbz9cg: nothing fundamental, just a lot of little things (improvement)19:41
mib_bjnbz9cgcedk: look at columns ,this is not different from tryton ?19:43
cedkmib_bjnbz9cg: there is new attributes, different default function, better definition of field Function, etc...19:44
cedklook at
mib_bjnbz9cgcedk: i see _columns are missing in tryton19:47
cedkmib_bjnbz9cg: yes, we use class attributes instead19:54
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cristi_ana balance sheet in Belgium is like the one is in tryton demo ?20:37
cristi_ani have one from Romania20:37
cristi_andoes this look like yours ?20:37
cristi_anbrb :)20:50
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CIA-51tryton: vengfulsquirrel * r422 /wiki/ Wrote down feature for substitutable products, still need to work out the details.23:17
CIA-51tryton: vengfulsquirrel * r423 /wiki/ Refined explanation of configurable BOMs and Production Order re-stocking.23:17

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