IRC logs of #tryton for Tuesday, 2010-11-23 #tryton log beginning Tue Nov 23 00:00:02 CET 2010
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2010-11-23 11:36 <kingsnake> hi, i have a question about the product module
2010-11-23 11:36 <kingsnake> what is the purpose of Template in relation to Product?
2010-11-23 11:45 <cedk> kingsnake: make some kind of declined products
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2010-11-23 11:54 <kingsnake> cedk: What are declined products?
2010-11-23 11:54 <pjstevns> @cedk I think you mean 'derived' not 'declined', right?
2010-11-23 11:54 <pjstevns> @kingsnake: it's an inheritance pattern used in more places. The Template is a full-fledged
2010-11-23 11:54 <pjstevns> model never used in the GUI, but used as a template for other models
2010-11-23 11:55 <pjstevns> @kingsnake: hence the _inherits in Product
2010-11-23 11:56 <pjstevns> 1) use _inherits if you want to create a new model that adapts/extends an existing model, while leaving the original model as-is.
2010-11-23 11:56 <pjstevns> 2) use _name overloading if you want to modify an existing model.
2010-11-23 11:56 <cedk> kingsnake: general example is T-shirt product
2010-11-23 11:57 <cedk> kingsnake: you can create one template for a kind of T-shirt and then just create product linked to this template for each size
2010-11-23 11:58 <cedk> kingsnake: this allow to share with all the t-shirt some common field value
2010-11-23 11:58 <kingsnake> pjstev
2010-11-23 11:59 <kingsnake> pjstevns: thanks for explaining
2010-11-23 12:00 <kingsnake> cedk: That makes sense but i see issues with stock control since product code is a property of product and in stock moves it references product if i'm correct
2010-11-23 12:01 <cedk> kingsnake: i don't see issue
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2010-11-23 12:10 <kingsnake> cedk: but then what if the xtra-large t-shirt cost more then the small t-shirt - price is in template but they share the same template
2010-11-23 12:11 <pjstevns> kingsnake: you misunderstand: they each have their own table and attributes. Only the model-definition is shared, not the tables or rows
2010-11-23 12:13 <cedk> kingsnake: then you develop to put the prices on the product and no more on the template
2010-11-23 12:13 <cedk> kingsnake: or you create separated products
2010-11-23 12:16 <pjstevns> kingsnake: I checked. Scratch my last message
2010-11-23 12:16 <pjstevns> tables and rows *are* shared.
2010-11-23 12:18 <sharoon> kingsnake: This pattern is commonly used for using variants within your system... if you can make the relationship from product.tempalte to product.product as o2m
2010-11-23 12:20 <sharoon> i think udono was working on something similar. i dont remember, somebody was asking alst time about this
2010-11-23 12:24 <sharoon> Hello all, requesting review for email_template
2010-11-23 12:31 <udono> sharoon: kingsnake: you find the old product_variant module here: <disclaimer> This module will NEVER install or run with a recent Tryton version and it has never been finished or tested in real life. Bad code ahead. Using this module could damage the whole world, but at least your Database </disclaimer>
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2010-11-23 17:29 <sharoon> pheller: ping
2010-11-23 17:29 <pheller> sharoon: hello
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2010-11-23 17:29 <sharoon> pheller: i missed your conversation on email
2010-11-23 17:29 <sharoon> module
2010-11-23 17:31 <pheller> sharoon: No problem. I was only wondering what your plans were for getting email into Tryton...... if you've already written some MDA for the purpose.
2010-11-23 17:31 <sharoon> pheller: For mail server to tryton? or Tryton to up?
2010-11-23 17:31 <pheller> sharoon: mail server -> tryton
2010-11-23 17:32 <sharoon> pheller: ah, that has a few issues, and we discussed with cedk sometime back
2010-11-23 17:32 <sharoon> pheller: main problem being the security hole
2010-11-23 17:32 <sharoon> pheller: we have to store the password of the user in the DB for the mail server
2010-11-23 17:32 <sharoon> pheller: dont know if we have any alternative
2010-11-23 17:33 <pheller> sharoon: oh, so you are rather pulling mail from some external server (pop, imap) rather than saying "" is delivered to ....?
2010-11-23 17:33 <pheller> sharoon: back in 15 min, meeting.
2010-11-23 17:34 <sharoon> pheller: will wait for you
2010-11-23 17:46 <pheller> sharoon: back
2010-11-23 17:46 <paepke> pheller, 2c from me: there are a lot of programs around, which do exaclty the pull-thing. fetchmail is a great tool and rather major. there are for sure some counterparts on windows.
2010-11-23 17:46 <pheller> paepke: yes, agreed, there are many programs (and also libraries) to pull.
2010-11-23 17:47 <pheller> paepke: it seems the concern is storing the password for the mail account within the tryton database...
2010-11-23 17:48 <sharoon> paepke: pheller: its easy to make the same functionality in tryton and the tryton scheduler is amazing... if we can devise some way like the keychain/keyring we could do it?
2010-11-23 17:51 <paepke> pheller, if you use external programs, you don't have the need to store passwords.
2010-11-23 17:53 <paepke> sharoon: a good idea with a keyring. another idea would be to use kerberos, but thats a complex setup for a installation.
2010-11-23 17:53 <paepke> sharoon, pheller: the last discussion i had here on the channel ends up that storing passwords in a central way is bad. either on fetchmail or in tryton.
2010-11-23 17:54 <pheller> sharoon, paepke: basically, if the mail is pulled, the password must be stored somewhere in plain-text, even if only temporally.
2010-11-23 17:54 <paepke> sharoon, another idea is to provide the password via the .ini on the client in his homedir.
2010-11-23 17:55 <sharoon> paepke: and how do we fetch it from the client?
2010-11-23 17:55 <paepke> sharoon, pheller. the bad thing is that the mail-fetching will only happen when the user is online with his client. bad concept.
2010-11-23 17:56 <paepke> sharoon, on login the tryton-client could push it through net-rpc.
2010-11-23 17:56 <paepke> sharoon, but it excludes the currently non-existing gwt-client
2010-11-23 17:56 <pheller> paepke: I think it better that an MTA be able to deliver to Tryton via some MDA.
2010-11-23 17:57 <pheller> then no passwords at all....
2010-11-23 17:57 <paepke> pheller, so like the fetchmail concept.
2010-11-23 17:57 <pheller> paepke: no... more like a user logs into Microsoft exchange and says "forward all my mail to"
2010-11-23 17:57 <paepke> sharoon, pheller every supported os has its own keyring management system. that would offload it to the gtk-client. and make it rather complex.
2010-11-23 17:58 <pheller> paepke: mx is some MTA that has a delivery agent that uses, say, proteus to instantiate a mail object for the user......
2010-11-23 17:58 <paepke> pheller, very good idea with proteus. like it.
2010-11-23 17:59 <paepke> pheller, there are some setups where the user will not have an internal mail-server structure where he can forward mails.
2010-11-23 18:00 <pheller> paepke: then these users are out of luck. ;-)
2010-11-23 18:00 <sharoon> paepke: +1 like google apps
2010-11-23 18:00 <sharoon> udono: ping
2010-11-23 18:00 <udono> sharoon: pong
2010-11-23 18:01 <sharoon> udono: just got your review, can i explain here?
2010-11-23 18:01 <udono> sharoon: yes
2010-11-23 18:01 <pheller> sharoon: google apps email has forwarding....
2010-11-23 18:01 <pheller> sharoon: looking at the it in my google apps account prefs right now....
2010-11-23 18:02 <sharoon> udono: basically an 'electronic_mail' record is created from 'electronic_mail.template'
2010-11-23 18:02 <paepke> pheller, but would you expose your tryton-mail stuff via the internet?
2010-11-23 18:02 <sharoon> udono: so template has all fields of an email (which i dint want to duplicate)
2010-11-23 18:02 <sharoon> udono: in addition, it has specific settings exclusive to the template like templating language, report to send etc
2010-11-23 18:03 <sharoon> udono: which is why the design uses this pattern - do you have anything better in mind?
2010-11-23 18:03 <sharoon> pheller: saw that
2010-11-23 18:03 <paepke> pheller, sharoon: fetchmail is based on fetching mail via pop/imap and mail-forwarding via smtp. so it looks like there is an internal mail-server which forwards directly.
2010-11-23 18:04 <pheller> paepke: well, the MTA/MDA could have some intelligence -- perhaps only accept mail from certain domains. Or, maybe the forwarding address isn't ""; maybe it's a UUID If the UUID doesn't exist, ignore the message.
2010-11-23 18:04 <pheller> back again in 1 hour.... meeting.
2010-11-23 18:05 <udono> sharoon: for me a template is a 'base' model, which is extended by specification like done in product, account. Your model say that electronic mail is the base, which is extended by a 'template'. Maybe just the word 'template' is misguiding me.
2010-11-23 18:06 <sharoon> paepke: i think what cedk was suggesting was using the twisted libraries for IMAP
2010-11-23 18:06 <paepke> pheller, sharoon: if we use a tryton internal fetching, the user can easily change or add informations which mail-accounts should be fetched. a central approach will offload the work to the it-department.
2010-11-23 18:06 <sharoon> udono: yeh, i think thats the problem - the word template is as in templating, not like in product.template i believe
2010-11-23 18:06 <paepke> sharoon, twisted to provide an imap-interface to the mails stored inside tryton. imap can also push
2010-11-23 18:07 <sharoon> paepke: IMHO the best approach is tryton fetching the emails, provided we can build a safe interface to save the password
2010-11-23 18:07 <sharoon> paepke: i went through a few popular support ticket systems etc and allof them seem to store passwords in plain text
2010-11-23 18:08 <sharoon> cedk: ping - need advice
2010-11-23 18:08 <paepke> sharoon, on my ticket system i use the push approach via a delivery daemon on the mta-side. its even faster...
2010-11-23 18:08 <udono> sharoon: when I wanted to integrate email functionality in an additional module, which class I usually use, electronic_mail or electronic_mail.template?
2010-11-23 18:09 <sharoon> udono: can you give an example?
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2010-11-23 18:09 <paepke> sharoon, anyway for sending mails there would be at least a plain text password in the trytond.conf file like for the sql-database access.
2010-11-23 18:09 <udono> sharoon: sorry, can not imagine for now
2010-11-23 18:10 <sharoon> udono: i think the module is flexible to send/generate mails from any model/object
2010-11-23 18:10 <sharoon> udono: it uses ir.triggers to automatically create mails - so even that is solved
2010-11-23 18:11 <sharoon> udono: so i cannot imagine another type of extension other than programmatically triggering template rendering to make an email - for example clicking a button sends a reminder etc
2010-11-23 18:11 <sharoon> udono: that could be done using ele... template module
2010-11-23 18:12 <udono> sharoon: yes, it looks in general very flexible.
2010-11-23 18:12 <sharoon> udono: i hope that fulfils half of the email integration agenda for v2.0 :)
2010-11-23 18:13 <sharoon> now we really need a good idea on how MTA/MDA needs to be designed...
2010-11-23 18:14 <udono> sharoon: :-) Maybe I do not understand why you separate into electronic_mail or electronic_mail.template? For me both are one model: electronic_mail
2010-11-23 18:15 <udono> sharoon: are there many 'real' emails sharing one template?
2010-11-23 18:16 <sharoon> udono: i think we could get more feedback on that, one simple reason for this design is that template takes in value for text part, htl part etc, while they are fetched on the fly from the email binary in the electronic_mail model
2010-11-23 18:18 <udono> sharoon: but when taking text part into template, you will have some kind of one2one relationship between electronic_mail and electronic_mail.template?
2010-11-23 18:18 <udono> ACTION does not mean fields.One2One(...
2010-11-23 18:18 <sharoon> udono: its a one2one relationship in effect
2010-11-23 18:19 <udono> sharoon: so, why not just put the fields from electronic_mail.template directly into electronic_mail?
2010-11-23 18:20 <paepke> sharoon, there comes something to my mind if we fetch via tryton with a provided username/password: Some/a lot of companies have a password changing rule for example every 3 months. that could be additionally anoying to the user that he has to reset the right password.
2010-11-23 18:20 <udono> sharoon: ... this will simplify your model.
2010-11-23 18:21 <sharoon> udono: makes me think, can somebody else also review and give feedback
2010-11-23 18:21 <sharoon> udono: But cedk was particular that it should be possible to store emails even without the tempating feature
2010-11-23 18:21 <sharoon> udono: just as an archive for emails, and i think i agree with the idea
2010-11-23 18:21 <sharoon> paepke: agree
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2010-11-23 18:23 <sharoon> udono: in such a case we need it as two separate modules... just trying to put in reasons on 'why' it should be current design... subject to debate of course
2010-11-23 18:23 <udono> sharoon: Ic, so you can just extend the electronic_mail model from the other module.
2010-11-23 18:23 <paepke> sharoon, on the other hand could be that password be the same as using the ldap-module so the same as on login to tryton.
2010-11-23 18:24 <sharoon> paepke: ah, thats an interesting point we need to keep in mind- atleast when designing the API to ensure that ldap configured emails could adapt too
2010-11-23 18:25 <sharoon> udono: yep
2010-11-23 18:26 <paepke> sharoon, finally we should support both methods. running a scheduler to fetch mails via tryton. and a kind of smtp/imap/whatever gateway to PUSH mails into tryton
2010-11-23 18:28 <sharoon> paepke: I agree, but anyway to directly reduce the impact of the security issue... one could be encoding the password with some kind of encoding?
2010-11-23 18:31 <paepke> sharoon, i have no clue. firefox or other mui's would do it somehow. but that only works when the user is logged in. don't think its a good solution to decode the password on server side.
2010-11-23 18:32 <paepke> sharoon, like having a hashing string in trytond.conf or by supplying a keyfile on the server.
2010-11-23 18:32 <sharoon> paepke: thats what django does
2010-11-23 18:33 <sharoon> paepke: they have a hashing string which does most of the encoding bits
2010-11-23 18:33 <paepke> sharoon, thats why i mentioned it ;-)
2010-11-23 18:33 <sharoon> paepke: :)
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2010-11-23 18:43 <paepke> sharoon, and they say: CHANGE IT if you get it by source and look that nobody else will get this file.
2010-11-23 18:44 <paepke> sharoon, most likely if someone has access to youre database he will have this file.
2010-11-23 18:47 <sharoon> paepke: got you
2010-11-23 18:48 <paepke> sharoon, sorry, for a double post. it was still not in the log.
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2010-11-23 19:08 <pheller> wow, lots of good discussion on how to get emails into Tryton. I agree that both push and pull methods should be supported.
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