IRC logs of #tryton for Wednesday, 2015-11-25 #tryton log beginning Wed Nov 25 00:00:01 CET 2015
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LordVanmorning cedk08:57
LordVanhow you doing?08:57
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sisalphello, what is the effect of "consumable" on the product definition ?12:05
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cedkLordVan: hi12:10
cedksisalp: it remove the restriction on the availability of the product for assignation12:11
cedksisalp: so it means you don't care about the stock level12:12
sisalpcedk: is it still valuated in accounting ?12:13
cedksisalp: yes12:13
sisalpreading the doc. Interesting, I searched in product doc, not stock12:14
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csotelohello, I am looking for information about how to manage taxes on tryton, since on my country ( Peru ), manage two kind of invoices, one for companies and one for people, cause companies pays taxes for selling and people dont pay12:20
csoteloany suggest? please12:20
cedkcsotelo: you must use the tax rules to add/replace/remove taxes based on the party12:22
sisalpcedk: Can I keep traceability of consumables when I move then to the shopfloor ?12:24
sisalpcedk: shouldn't there be a location for destroyed consumables ?12:25
csotelocedk, thanks... I will check that, thanks12:27
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cedksisalp: if you want you can put a stock lot12:31
csoteloI was checking rules and parties, on my case, I have two kinds of customers: companies and people, for taxing, on my county call then natural people ( common people ) and legal people ( companies )12:38
csoteloboth of them use a identification, for natural people is the goverment id ( DNI ) and for legal people, they uses taxing ID ( RUC ), nute the main difference is that legal people must have the total payed as a normal invoice, and the common person, just need to know the final payment...12:41
csotelomy question, after checking is: DO i need to create a new party for use on legal pepple?12:41
csoteloand finally, since this is a technical chanel, is there a way or document for this kind of information?12:42
csoteloin order on been askins dumb questions12:42
cedkcsotelo: I think you don't give enough information about the requirements12:42
cedkcsotelo: also I don't understand why you are talking about payment12:44
sisalpcedk: maybe the name consumable is too elliptic. A "manage stock level" check box would be more explicit, wouldn't it ?12:53
csoteloI mean, the way on how manage people people pays, just legal people apply taxes12:54
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aroncerocsotelo: In Tryton all, natural people and legal people, is a Party12:58
cedksisalp: maybe12:58
cedkcsotelo: tax has nothing to do with how people pay12:58
aroncerocsotelo: you must create a tax rule, for example, for each natural people a rule that change the default TAX for none13:00
csoteloaroncero, and how manage diference between then, for restrict wich one must apply wich taxes, considering both of them for the texing goverment are two different people13:00
aroncerocsotelo: in account tab you decide the rule thas it is applied to that party13:01
csoteloaroncero, yes, that is my issue ( thanks a lot ) the issue is that, any time that i generate a new invice, I must do that, right? and ... there are two legal kind of invoice of my country named Factura ( common invoice ) and Boleta ( no taxes ) both of them have different count number and rules, one pay taxes and the other one no paytaxes13:04
csoteloI was thinking on customize account_invoice module for my country, but, how could I manage that one invoice type apply taxes and the other one no, programatically ( I am a python coder )13:05
LordVancedk, got a question  regarding some new laws in Austria regarding cash sales. did you hear about that yet?13:06
LordVan(so i don't have to explain it ^^)13:07
cedkLordVan: no13:08
cedkcsotelo: I think it is not really invoice types but indeed just depend which kind of party you invoice13:09
csotelocedk, legally we have two kind of invoicing and invoices13:10
csoteloand for goverment we must this two kind of invoices13:10
csotelowe have manage*13:10
cedkcsotelo: are you saying for the same party you can make two different kind of invoice?13:10
LordVancedk, ok well short form is: with some exceptions (small businesses, ...) nearly everyone who has cash (or card) sales from 2016-01-01 onwards needs to have a "register" / POS which prints a receipt for it and we have to give it to the customer and - theoretically -the customer has to take it at least off the premises .. (that part is really stupid)13:10
LordVananyway there are some sort of new requirements for those receipts13:10
LordVanamongst other things the data stored needs to be somehow signed (most likely smartcard) and also have a QR code with the signing key printed on the receipt (that is from 2017-01-01 only but still somethign to keep in mind)13:11
LordVanso i was wondering how much of that would already be possible with tryton13:11
LordVansince there seems to be some POS module but I haven'T had the time to look at it in detail yet13:11
csotelocedk, no, natural people use no taxing invoices and legal people ( companies ) use common invoice. As for goverment requiremet, how sell services or products must have this kind of invoicing, any way is no posible and n legal see o give any kind of service13:12
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csotelothe is the reason on my side, that I was reading some country customizations13:13
cedkcsotelo: so it is as I said, it is not really a type of invoice13:13
csoteloif I dont have gotten this two kind of invoicing, goverment taxing apply penaly ( two hight penalties )13:14
cedkLordVan: there is not yet any standard POS in Tryton13:14
cedkLordVan: I stared working on one:
LordVancedk, is there any way to integrate digital signatures (for storage and maybe also reports/documents/invoices) ?13:15
cedkbut I don't have enough time for now to finish it13:15
cedkLordVan: yes of course you can plug a digital signature on the Report13:15
csoteloone more thing, just small stores coul give "no taxing invoice" and coth kind of party ( legal and common ) could get just the no taxing invoice, but on normal bussines who seldd services or products must have this two kind of invoicing completeley separated13:16
cedkcsotelo: named as you want but it is not two types because the party already define completly it13:16
LordVancedk, ok - can the data in the database also be signed ? -- it has to be "tamper proof" from the tax people's point of view13:16
csoteloand , no applyton any tax on case on "no taxing invoices", any way is no possible to sell anything on Peru13:17
csotelothat is the reason on asking on how to customize the account_invoice for my country13:17
LordVancedk, anyway for my / our part we don't really need a proper POS .. just some way to generate a cash receipt quickly that meets the requirements of the government ^^13:17
cedkLordVan: I don't understand what you want to sign13:18
LordVancedk, the data storage13:18
LordVanbasically what is in the DB13:18
LordVanso that i can proove to the gov't it hasn'T been tampered with13:18
cedkcsotelo: I don't understand any of the 3 last sentences13:18
cedkLordVan: I don't understand what you try to acheive13:19
LordVancedk, i'D send you a link to the docs, but they are all in german13:19
cedkLordVan: if you sign, you can sign anything that proof nothing except that you signed it13:19
cedkLordVan: i don't read german13:19
LordVancedk, yeah i know ^^13:19
LordVancedk, yes basically they want it signed with a smart card thing (and also at some point in the future sent directly to the tax online service)13:20
LordVancedk, i am still trying to find out exact details on it myself13:20
csoteloI wil prepare a mail and send it on the list, chat is no enough for explain13:21
LordVancedk, hre's some sample "code" how one could use it with curl:
LordVan(just ignore the german parts ^^)13:21
LordVanthat would be if you signed using this provider's web service13:22
cedkLordVan: but what are you signing?13:22
LordVanthe contents of the cash receipt13:22
cedkLordVan: so it is a text file?13:22
LordVancedk, can be13:22
cedkLordVan: so what is the difficulty?13:23
LordVantaht is the easy part13:23
LordVanbutz there are also some - law typical- vague requirements for how the data is stored13:23
LordVanlet me see if i can maybe get google translate to do some half decent translation ^^13:24
LordVanor translate it myself13:24
cedkLordVan: usually such laws are pointless because it means nothing to someone who know what is storing13:24
LordVancedk, yes13:24
LordVanbut basically they have to be somehow satisfied that you at least tried13:24
LordVan ^^13:24
LordVan99.9% of the people checking this stuff will have no crypto knowledge i am sure of that  ^^13:25
LordVancedk, i did quicly read over this (google translator ) translatet text:
LordVani think it is understandable13:26
LordVanbasically law makers are a pain13:26
LordVanbasically the protocols of cash /card sales have to be somehow tamper proof13:28
TimitosLordVan: Do you have the german version for me ;-) i am interested in this topic too13:28
cedkLordVan: I see nothing about storage13:28
cedkLordVan: what I read is just that you have to send your text receipt to a signed hardware and store the result13:29
LordVancedk, well they are not really decided yet afaik but they want tamper proof stuff so afaik also local storage13:30
cedkLordVan: I don't understand13:32
cedkLordVan: local storage is always changing, what are you signing?13:32
LordVanwell the data for the already taken cash & cash receipts is not allowed to change after entry13:34
cedkLordVan: so what?13:35
cedkLordVan: if you need to store a copy of the receipt, just store a copy of the receipt13:35
LordVanhmm i guess that would be an option. generate a text file & pdf and then use that13:37
LordVanbut i think they'd also require the data from a report to come from a signed source ...13:37
LordVanso meh13:37
LordVangotta think about that in more detail13:37
aroncerocsotelo: When you select the party, tryton use the tax rule defined for his13:37
LordVan&discuss with people13:37
cedkLordVan: I don't understand what the goal?13:38
cedkLordVan: what is the signed source?13:38
cedkLordVan: signed by who?13:38
LordVanthe "goal" fo the tax people is that there'S less tax fraud i guess13:38
LordVancedk, well by smartcard / webservice (like the curl example)13:38
cedkLordVan: no that doesn't answer the question13:39
cedkLordVan: I said by who not by what13:39
LordVancedk, afaik they haven't even teally decided that13:39
LordVansigned by someone with an authorized certificate13:39
LordVanhence the web-service signage stuff13:39
cedkLordVan: so in less than 1 month, nothing is decided #WTF13:40
LordVanwhere basically a company e.g. this a-trust company signs waht you send13:40
LordVancedk, they do soemthign like this nearly every year13:40
LordVancedk, the signing is not mandatory just yet but the receipts are13:40
LordVansignign has a few more months13:40
LordVanbut the details of how it can / ahs to be done13:40
LordVanare not really defined properly (from a technial point of view)13:40
cedkLordVan: But it is plain stupid if there is somewhere someone who sign stuffs13:40
LordVanthe tax people basically say: we want it tamper proof13:40
LordVando it13:41
LordVanthecnical ppl go .. how the f** are we supposed to13:41
LordVantax ppl: donT' care jsut do it ..13:41
cedkLordVan: what tampered?13:41
LordVanalong those lines13:41
LordVanwell basically liek if you have a cash sale then later on try to change it because you want to "save" on tax13:41
LordVanand commit tax fraud that way13:41
LordVanit all sounds good for the law maker .. but they don'T usually care / know much about the technical details13:42
LordVanit is their idea of preventing tax fraud13:42
LordVananother part of that new law is that building companies are not allowed to pay their workers in cash anymore nor are they allowed transactions between each other in cash anymore (with some small exceptiosn)13:43
cedkLordVan: this doesn't explain anything, of course state wants people not break the rules13:43
LordVanthey did some other law last year that was in effect from 1st january as well but no-one knew at all how to actually do it13:44
LordVaneven 3 months later you rang them up and they said: we don't know yet either but if we check you in a year or 2 and you did it wrong you get fined ..13:44
cedkso what I see is that you just have to send your receipt to a service, finally point13:44
LordVancedk, yes i hope it ends up being "just" taht13:44
cedkso without any other information, the discussion is closed13:45
LordVanbut it is likely to also require smart card signing (with the "Bürgerkarte" - some card everyone with - mandatory- health insurace) has13:45
LordVanbut if you say there are basic signign capabilities13:45
LordVani guess it would be possible once this is properly defined13:45
LordVancedk, i am going to some information event thing on monday and see what they say13:46
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LordVanand also meet / talk with some other people interested and/or who have to deal with this soon13:46
LordVani shall get back to you when i ahve the needed information - should the need arise ^^13:47
cedkI think almost all european states have taken similar requirements, in Belgium it is dead simple you just have to buy a black box that you must put between your POS and your printer13:49
LordVancedk, taht is one option i guess if you buy something commercial non -FOSS13:58
LordVancedk, but what if i only want to do it in software13:59
cedkLordVan: you can not13:59
LordVando you ahve to do ti for cash sales where you don't have a traditional register too?14:00
LordVanor do they just require you to have it and taht's it14:00
cedkLordVan: only for food store14:01
LordVanwell here you need it for everything except like market stalls or seasonal stuff14:02
LordVanor if you have  < 7.5k cash/(card sales a year14:03
LordVancedk, i particularily like the part that one has to actually hand over the receipt to the customer (no matter if they want it or not) and they technically have to take it off the premises14:04
LordVanalthough the only one who'D get fined (up to 5000€) for not complying would be the seller14:04
LordVani am not sure how one would proove that then ..14:04
csoteloI have sent one mail for list in order on been as clear as possible14:05
LordVancedk, even restaurants and pubs ahve to do it for everything *and* hand over receipts for everything14:05
LordVannot sure how they would deal with it if people just throw it away right then and there (which technically speaking is not allowed but the customer won't get fined - but if the customer claimed he didn't get one it won't count if it is in your bin i guess ...)14:07
LordVanstupid mostly14:07
LordVanwell anyway i shall stop my ranting ^^14:07
LordVancedk, thanks for your time answering me :)14:07
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